30-60 hand - mike l thinks I blew one street - Page 6

skp · #51 02-01-2005, 09:00 PM

I question the usefulness of superior postflop play in big pots.

Well, that is poorly worded. Of course, superior postflop play is a good thing to have in any spot but what I mean is that in a big pot like this, a superior player like Clark may have as much difficulty as Joe Schmo in dealing with sticky spots. An example is if the flop comes down 832 and one of his opponets has 98. I don't know that the action on the flop will allow Clark to get a better read than Joe Schmo.

In big pots, you are going to have to show down the winner way more often than not. That aplies to Clark as well as Mr. Schmo (who also probably knows to checkraise the button on benign flops just like Clark did here).

And if you flop a set, Schmo will probably extract as much profit as Clark.

This is not a knock on Clark who is an awesome player...I know from watching him post and play....it's just a comment on big pots and how things generally unfold.

Tyler Durden · #52 02-01-2005, 09:02 PM

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astro, you VASTLY overestimate yaser's tournament playing ability. he couldn't finish 125th in the WSOP

he finished 126th...puleeeese

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Barron! I won the Large Caps tourney on Party last night!
So shut it!

DcifrThs · #53 02-01-2005, 09:06 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
astro, you VASTLY overestimate yaser's tournament playing ability. he couldn't finish 125th in the WSOP

he finished 126th...puleeeese

[/ QUOTE ]

Barron! I won the Large Caps tourney on Party last night!
So shut it!

[/ QUOTE ]

bring it...HU limit biatch [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

i seem to remember: "im calling you down." and a ride home.

-Barron

Clarkmeister · #54 02-01-2005, 09:10 PM

"In big pots, you are going to have to show down the winner way more often than not. "

I agree with this, but I'd modify it to say in all pots you have to show down the winner more often than not. I've strongly modified my postflop play lately in favor of a "get to showdown" type of strategy and it's been working incredibly well. Which is likely why I value pairs and aces more than many on here and value suited connectors way way less.

skp · #55 02-01-2005, 09:16 PM

"get to showdown"...I love it..I have always noticed that I raise way less often than most good players when the pot becomes heads-up or 3 ways.

One time, there was a guy talking about good players in Vancouver and he threw in my name into the basket. The guy he was talking to frowned and said "Sid?...no way man...shiiit....that dude should write a book called 'how to checkcall your way to millions'...heh.

Leaky Eye · #56 02-01-2005, 09:21 PM

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Against "a readable local and 2 retards who are spewing" wouldn't there be a lot better spots than this to take their money?
Why make it so difficult on yourself....

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What do other spots have to do with this spot?

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I see alot of good players react to "retards spewing" by following suit. They think need to gamble it up with them, or that since they are "retards" they should be easy to outplay. I personally prefer to wait them out, as they will eventually dump their chips to me. I guess I don't see this extremely marginal situation as a good opportunity for that to happen. I prefer to make plays like this against decent, but not great players.

You were at the table so I can't argue with what you see, but on paper this looks counterproductive to me.

I would bet the river though. I can't imagine anyone bluffing at you after a river check, and thinking they are getting a fold. At least not the guy you described.

BarronVangorToth · #57 02-01-2005, 10:19 PM

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Barron you actually wrote in your post...

>>>I like how you check-raised the flop, given that, though, maybe check the turn, hoping for the check-through, and then bet out at the river due to "hitting your flush"?<<<

How does this make any sense at all? This is a very bad post. Seriously what are you talking about? Are you bluffing? Value betting? Opposite Day?

And why does noone comment? Is everyone just ignoring him for some reason?

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The other guy (Elin.) did cover it well, as far as why I said what I did, my first point still is that I am not crazy about the pre-flop action. Granted, I'm out here on the east coast and seniors would hit me with their canes and/or walkers if I tabled pocket 66's at showdown after this pre-flop action.

HOWEVER, as to why I said what I did, without being results oriented (his opponent has a flush, he's going to lose, ESPECIALLY given my line) I thought another way to try this would be to check-raise the flop, check the turn (raising if bet at), and then betting out at the river regardless.

The whole thing is a bluff in this situation as he's representing from the get-go some holding that is > 66's. Given that, that was my $0.02 (which would've cost him more than he lost on the hand, granted).

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

BarronVangorToth · #58 02-01-2005, 10:24 PM

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Huh? Do you really think this is the best play, or are you just trying to make up a play that maybe somebody else thinks is the best play so you can be in agreement with them? You know, it is possible that, even though two players seem to have agreed that exactly one street was misplayed, there were zero or even two misplayed streets.

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Perhaps what I wrote did get convoluted as I was trying to guess at what was thought as "the wrong street" into my thoughts, but I think what I wrote was fairly clear regardless (and, while I do participate in these discussions to learn from them, I certainly would never say anything just to come to some agreement with others, especially if I don't agree with their opinions).

That all said... Hopefully my explanation above covers it. No, I don't think you can induce a fold too easily in this hand (especially when you see the results) and I still think the big street error was pre-flop and I would've folded, but let's forget that and assume the pre-flop action is a given...

The flop is played well.

So then we're at the turn. I think the check / check-raise followed by betting the river MIGHT be the only way out of Denmark with this hand.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Lawrence Ng · #59 02-02-2005, 07:33 AM

Pre-flop play - I like.

Flop play - I very like. I learned a lot from this flop play.

Turn play - I like. Standard.

River play.... errr....well... I thought a good few minutes and I'd rather check..call..induce the bluff... too many possiblities really that button could have. Yeah, I would check-call. You have shown so much strength on a multi-way filled action board, I don't think button is gonna call you with a hand worse than 66 and likely is going to pump you if he hits the 8 or hits his heart draw. yeah..i check-call.

Lawrence

URMeowed · #60 02-02-2005, 10:27 AM

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Button, a total lag who slowplays his big hands preflop now 4-bets

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I must have missed the true definition of a LAG. If this guy was a total LAG, why would he slowplay his big hands? And if he's a total LAG, why would he just flat call your flop check raise with a gutshot straight flush draw? And if he's a total LAG, why would he just flat call your turn bet? And if he's a total LAG, why would he cold call three with 66 out of the BB and check raise any favorable flop? Oops, strike that last remark. Meow.