The value of aggression

[Gazza]

How do you play it if he has position on you and starts to call you down. Just keep betting and fold to a raise on the turn or river I suppose?

Gazza

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought about exactly like you. My thoughts were AA-10, AK or AQ.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so what does AA, KK and AK do when you raise the flop. 3bet you and you fold. Or maybe checkraise the turn. Regardless you get put in the position to put more money in the pot.

But, you say you are gonna fold if this happens. OK, good. So what if JJ or AQ 3bets you? OOOOppppps.......

Ok what does QQ, JJ or 1010 do when you raise? Usually fold.

But what if you dont raise? What do these hands do on the turn? They bet again. You call again. Now, they usually check the river. You bet and get a crying call. So you make like 2 more bets against someone drawing to 2 outs.

In shorthanded and heads up situations this is the most common line here. If you dont understand why or how to utilize this line you are causing yourself serious dough.

[Gazza]

Your example may not be the best but your premise is of course correct. Here, in my opinion, is a better and very typical example of the value of aggression.
UTG is a VPIP 66, PFR 3 man and my table image was very tight (VPIP 18) which explains my play. In general I like to ignore these passive limpers and raise with the same hands I would have done if it had been folded to me in the CO

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4.50 BB

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
If you dont understand why...

[/ QUOTE ]

...it is probably because you have not explained yourself properly.

Instead of being so condescending, try doing the math. You need to show to poster what the likelihood of each hand is, the proper spread of hands (AA does not occur as often as AK etc., the numbers please) and the likely consequence of each action (you have started this). You need to demonstrate which hands cost/earn what and how frequently, then poster (and other readers) may have a better understanding of why calling down is better. You need to show he is ahead enough to make this right, and how calling down every time in this spot is profitable as well as showing how he wins more when ahead.

4/10 must try harder.

[deadsoon]

after thinking about it I have to agree with the call down line. You can only make this raise if you are comftorable laying down to a 3-bet on the flop. Against that aggressive a player I'd think this would be giving away too much.

[Trix]

You realize he only folds hands you dont want him to fold and calls or raises hands you dont want him to call or raise when you get aggro on the flop right ?

[MAxx]

I am on board with advice of previous posters.

However, can we safely say the opposite is also correct against a weak passive.

Say villain in this hand was weak passive postflop, wouldn't our flop raise be money? If villain would only play back with a better hand, we don't wanna call down... correct?

[spider]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so what does AA, KK and AK do when you raise the flop. 3bet you and you fold. Or maybe checkraise the turn. Regardless you get put in the position to put more money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the lag, but I think he calls flop and goes for a turn check-raise pretty often rather than 3-betting flop. In this case, you can save an SB by checking turn and calling river. This is a better play if you think opponent is likely to be ahead, but not so likely that you aren't going to call it down (i.e. you reduce the size of his potential bluff that you have decided to call down).

[ QUOTE ]
Ok what does QQ, JJ or 1010 do when you raise? Usually fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say sometimes fold, but not too often. Opponent capped but hero only 3-bet, so opponent is far from sure he is behind simply b/c hero raises flop. I don't expect QQ to fold very often at all, and I think JJ &amp; TT probably call it down if the turn is a rag.

Anyway, I don't really have a problem with the "just call" line, but I think there is enough variance in how opponent might be playing here to make other lines viable.

[Trix]

It depends what range he will bet the flop with and which he will call a raise and a turnbet with and which he will 3bet or CR turn with.

Usually call,call,call. bet if checked to anywhere is prefered against unknowns.

[Victor]

Ok Naphand,

We can agree that the most likely hands for his opponent are AA-1010 and AKo and AKs. Also less likely are 99-88, KQo/s and AQo/s.

For simplicity lets only look at the first group. There are 10 ways to have Ak and 3 ways to have kk, 1 way to have qq and 6 ways for any other pair.

AK - 10
AA - 6
KK - 3
QQ - 1
JJ - 6
TT - 6

Now assume opp will lead the flop with any of these hands. Next assume opp will fold if raised with less than a pair of kings but will lead the turn and either call or lead the river if unimproved. djoyce claims he will fold if his opponent shows anymore aggression.

There is 9.4 small bets in the pot. When opp bets there is 10.4. Taking djoyces line he wins 10.4 sb 13 times. He loses 2small bets 19 times. His net is 10.4*13 - 19*2 = 97.2 sb or 48.6bb.

Taking my line he wins a sb on the flop and 2 bb on the turn and river when ahead. This is 7.7BB 13 times. He loses 2.5 BB 19 times. This net is 7.7*13 - 2.5*19 = 52.6BB.

So over this range of hands my line is ahead by 52.6BB to 48.6BB.

This, of course doesnt take into account the times either of you improve but, it is a fair assumption that they will cancel each other out. Actually, intution tells me that due to your better position you will benefit from improvement. That is, when you opp improves he still bets into you and you still lose only 1 bet. When you improve and your opp bets into you, you raise and gain an extra bet.

This is a crude model based on crude, rigid assumptions. These assumptions, though, were the ones that djoyce layed out so they are applicable.

Change your opponent into a loose calling station and raising is better because you get more value. Change your opp into a lag maniac and raising is super bad if you are going to fold to a 3bet.

[ QUOTE ]
...it is probably because you have not explained yourself properly.

Instead of being so condescending, try doing the math

[/ QUOTE ]

It is tedious and time consuming to mathematically solve every model that intuition and logic already provide adequate answers for. If someone does not have the logic or intuition to come to these conclusions then yes I am being condescending.