Struggling in the Party 15

oscark · #1 01-17-2005, 04:10 PM

Looking at my results in the 15, I either have a rather sizeable leak in my game or have been quite unlucky. I have a fair amount of hands under my belt, so it is getting harder and harder to blame it on just variance. I am including several hands from a very rough session last night. Let me hear it:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (11.33 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (20.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 25.33 BB

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, CO 3-bets, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO bets, UTG+2 calls.

River: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (5.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Turn: (3.83 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.83 BB

Again, appreciate any constructive criticism on my play.

Thanks,

Oscar

JasonP530 · #2 01-17-2005, 05:18 PM

I play the hands similarly, but let me see if I can help you out some. I seem to have the same problem in the Party 15. All the numbers look right, but the bottom line. All I seem to remember is the $500-$700 pots that I lost on the turn and river, of which there are usually many. I usually wind up saying, "If I had just gotten one of those 5 pots, I would be up instead of even..."

1. I see why you 3 bet, but the problem is that youre building a massive pot with this one pair hand. If it was AKs, its a little better, but you may be better off cold calling and trying to clear the field with a flop or turn raise. I would say youre up against a set of tens in the first hand, given UTG+1's action. You did go off for a lot of bets with one pair. I would do exactly what you did, but it feels wrong.

2. Pot is small, but there are only so many queens in the deck. I might try a muscle checkraise of the CO on the turn. It is unlikely he has a better Q than you have, as he didnt raise his post.

3. I would lead the turn and not go for the checkraise. He knows where you are, having raised from the blinds, so he can easily 3 bet you with a better hand and not pay you off with a worse one.

4. Well played. Bad flop.

TStoneMBD · #3 01-17-2005, 05:33 PM

hand 1: pay off the river bet getting 25:1

hand 2: perfect

hand 3: 3bet the flop

hand 4: pretty standard without reads

astroglide · #4 01-17-2005, 05:42 PM

1: when somebody pokes like that it's often a turned draw (seems less and less this way now) but once it's threebet you're hurting badly and a board pair very well might not help because of AT, but A8 and A6 still keep the dream alive. clear fold without improvement on the river.

2: 5-way rugged flops still won't tend to get checked around. i would check this one to see if i can get a bet/raise to me (easy fold barring info), otherwise i'm checkraising myself.

3: i reraise the flop here or call and lead the turn (calling a raise back because the line is somewhat odd). if he's got a flush draw he'll often cap and his "free card" is already paid in full so i don't care.

4: looks fine, depends on looseness because people will call with any gutshot there a lot. that can turn it into a bet/fold to raise on the turn.

snakehead · #5 01-18-2005, 01:43 AM

it sounds like you are folding too easily. if you have that much trouble reading aggressive players, you would be better off playing lower limits or tight games.

amulet · #6 01-18-2005, 02:07 AM

1. correctly played

2. tough. can't fault your fold, hanging in is ok too with top pair. depends on your read over the table on the player.

3. correct.

4. a tough choice. if you check he will bet and you must fold. if you bet, you might be best. again it depends on your read at the table. i often lead at pp with jj in an unraised pot and an A hits, and am surprised when they fold once we are on the exensive street. but your play is fine, and probably was the right choice. to reiterare, you know the player, does he play any A, does he play any pair to the river, or is he solid?

why not drop down to the 10/20 for a few months see if your results improve?

Diplomatdcm · #7 01-18-2005, 02:40 AM

Hand 1 you put in way too many bets with 1 pair, they are either bluffing or have you smoked get to the river as cheap as possible, by the river you are obviously crushed.

hand 2
it has gotten to the point where people will cap for a free card, don't fold a decent top pair in this spot.

hand 3
just call the turn

hand 4
looks fine

it looks like you are being too agg with top pair type hands, esp on the turn, slow down with these hands and unless you have a note try not to put in multple bets on the turn with 1 pair, and i am not sure if the QT hand is representative of your play but you should not be folding that, suck it up and call the flop, it sucks but that is the price of playing in a super agg game like the party 15.
Dave

oscark · #8 01-18-2005, 03:57 AM

Dave,

I think you have nailed one of my (many) problems. One thing that is confusing to me...I know some of the more successful 15 players are much more agg postflop than me, I guess they just must pick their spots a lot better.

Appreciate all of your replies. Now just let me win a couple hands [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks,

Oscar

The Truth · #9 01-18-2005, 04:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1: when somebody pokes like that it's often a turned draw (seems less and less this way now) but once it's threebet you're hurting badly and a board pair very well might not help because of AT, but A8 and A6 still keep the dream alive. clear fold without improvement on the river.

2: 5-way rugged flops still won't tend to get checked around. i would check this one to see if i can get a bet/raise to me (easy fold barring info), otherwise i'm checkraising myself.

3: i reraise the flop here or call and lead the turn (calling a raise back because the line is somewhat odd). if he's got a flush draw he'll often cap and his "free card" is already paid in full so i don't care.

4: looks fine, depends on looseness because people will call with any gutshot there a lot. that can turn it into a bet/fold to raise on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree on all accounts.
1. I would almost consider folding the turn, but as a standard, call, and fold the river without improvement.

2. Check with the intention of raising is a great play with this action. I generally recomend just leading the flop, but with the number of players and texture of flop I think check raise.

3. My first instinct on this hand was call and lead the turn. 3 betting the flop has merit, however, I like the call/lead play as most people show their true colors on the rounds with the big bets, and if he caps the flop with a draw I dont like having to call down.

4. I might like leading the turn better than check/folding.
If you bet a drawing hand will give you a free showdown on the river alot. Hands that just called the flop with whatever will release on the big round, but might bet if you check to them.
It is close, but I think bet/fold to a raise might be a better play, as astro said, depends on the player.

my 2 cents

Diplomatdcm · #10 01-18-2005, 04:46 AM

this is why the game is both juciy and tough, it is hard to pick the right spots and the texture of the game is so variable, anyways good luck and i am sure you will be crushing the game shortly.
dave