introduction + flush draw questions

[smiely]

(standard intro stuff - feel free to skip down)
Long time lurker, first time poster. Let me start out with a bit of my poker history... started playing .05/.10 home games with my friends at college about a year ago, most of us had no strategy or anything, it was a big fish pond really. Fast forward 9 months or so - I'm willing to learn poker for real, and my boyfriend wants to help me learn. He tells me to start off reading ITH, then he'll transfer $10 into a pokerstars account for me, and I could start off playing .02/.04. I go with that for a while, then once I hit $15, I decide to take a shot at .05/.10 because .02/.04 is too much like play money. I stumble along at .05/.10 for a while, then I suddenly feel like I "get it" and shoot up to $50. This is probably around the end of November. The boyfriend and I talk, and decide that I should take a shot at .25/.50 for a buyin, and if I fail, back to .05/.10 for me. Well, I succeed for a time, get up to about $80, then go on a downslide back to $50, up, down, up, down, with the knowledge that if I get much below $50, it's back to .05/.10. Then a funny thing happens. I start losing less than I'm winning. Sure, I might have 2 back-to-back losing sessions, but then I'd have a bigger winning session than the two losers. Meanwhile, I start to better understand why I'm playing certain hands the way I am, and it's not just because the boyfriend or Hilger said to. The game actually becomes real to me. The boyfriend bought me a PT activation for Xmas, which has been absolutely invaluable. My sample size is tiny, only ~1400 hands at .25/.50 in PT since I've gotten it, but it coincided with me starting to play better, and my stats are decent thus far - (I'm at work, so I'm going by what I remember) VPIP between 18 and 20, PFR between 5 and 7, Tot-A between 1.7 and 1.9 - that I'd like to get higher. I'll be starting to read TOP in the near future, when I can borrow a copy. I still don't know if I'm going to be any sort of long-term winner yet, but I'm trying to learn, and finally understanding much more than I did 3 months ago.

Now, on to the content of the post... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I was thinking on my way to work this morning about flush draws. Specifically, what action to take on the turn when a flush hasn't come yet. I know it's dependent on starting hand, position, flop cards, etc. So I'm trying to determine under what conditions I should be betting, checking, or raising.

One scenario I've thought about, that I seem to be in quite a bit:

LP limp Axs, 3 or 4 limpers see flop of, say, Kxx or Qxx, where 2 of the cards are my suit (doesn't much matter which). I do whatever is best to get as much money into the pot at that point (whether raising after a couple have people have bet/called, or betting after it's checked around to me), turn comes down... none of these possibilities give me the flush:
a) another high card, not an A, that doesn't pair the board
b) another high card, not an A, does pair the board
c) low card, doesn't pair the board
d) low card, pairs the board

What should I do in these situations, if it's checked to me? I tend to sometimes check and sometimes bet a, check b, bet c, and sometimes check and sometimes bet d. Of course, this all depends on reads and such. And if someone has bet before it gets to me, I guess it depends on the pot odds at that point.

Sorry I don't have any hands to back up these questions right now - like I said, I'm at work, and I was just letting my mind wander in the car this morning, and this is what I came up with. I feel like I'm being too passive on the turn and river on a lot of my hands, so I'm trying to identify possible areas to kick up the aggression, and this seemed to be a good place to start. So, any and all comments are appreciated, and I'll be starting to post hands as well. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[k000k]

The river is 4.1:1 to bring you your last suit, so with 3-4 players in, I try to get the free river card. You don't have enough equity to make the turn bet, you'd need a couple more players in who will call the bet. You have odds to CALL a bet here though. With 3-4 in there's probably a pair out there somewhere, you probably aren't ahead. If you did a good job on the flop, then the pot's probably decent size by now, you can't bluff out 3-4 other players. Take the freebie in all 4 scenarios.

Edit: I guess you can have an out or so for the ace, so maybe with 4 opponents, you'd have enough equity to bet if you know they'll all call.

[Messy Harry]

Hi Smeily. I'd welcome you to the board, but you've been here awhile - so welcome to posting.

Seems like whenever I bet my hands in this scenario, I don't hit the flush and I kick myself for not taking the free card. Conversely, when I take the free card and hit it, I kick myself for not having been more aggressive.

As I think you've already discovered, it's difficult to make a hard and fast rule as to how to play these kind of scenarios (without looking at a specific hand you're posting) because of the "it depends" factors that are often unique to each hand. That being said, you might want to take the safe line and take the free card until you start to feel you have a good ability to read your opponents and develop your post flop skills and aggression.

Post the hands as they come up and you'll get good feedback from the very experienced players in this forum.

You sound like a cool girlfriend. Good luck to you.

[tiltaholic]

Hi-
welcome.
this thread is a pretty good discussion...
Ajax on flushes
-t

[GrunchCan]

Welcome to the forum.

I enjoyed reading your intro. Nice story. Although you might not agree, it seems to me like you haven't really had a hard time of it at all. You haven't done it all until youv'e had to redeposit becasue your balace was $0.08. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Here's hoping you never have to! Anyway, I digress...

Even though youv'e laid out some details, there are still no general answers to playing flush draws - or any hand, for that matter. The only advice I can really give you is two-fold:

1) Assuming you have the odds to play, your equity edge generally is a good indicator as to how aggressive you should be. If you have an edge, you bet & raise. If you don't you sit back & call. This is an oversimplification, but that's the idea.

2) Post hands. We can give you lots of specific advice if you give us hands to work with.

[zephed56]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to determine under what conditions I should be betting, checking, or raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
At the microlimits, this should almost always be a no brainer check/call. They just don't fold! Use their passiveness to your advantage, you can get some free cards on the turn.

The only situation where I would bet is if it is heads up on the turn. It's too hard to get more than one fish to fold. This is not a hard and fast rule, just a guideline to take into account in these situations.

TOP has a good section on optimal bluffing frequency. Against players who go too far with their hands, you should bluff and semibluff less frequently.

[ QUOTE ]

I feel like I'm being too passive on the turn and river on a lot of my hands, so I'm trying to identify possible areas to kick up the aggression, and this seemed to be a good place to start.

[/ QUOTE ] Bet more with made hands.

And pick up Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller.

[jar]

[ QUOTE ]
And pick up Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller.

[/ QUOTE ]
She's getting there. TOP is on the block next, then SSH. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
When I jumped straight into SSH, I became a chip spewing LAG for a while. I'm trying to prevent her from suffering the same fate. Of course, IsaacW would say I'm still a chip spewing LAG.

[IsaacW]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And pick up Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller.

[/ QUOTE ]
She's getting there. TOP is on the block next, then SSH. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
When I jumped straight into SSH, I became a chip spewing LAG for a while. I'm trying to prevent her from suffering the same fate. Of course, IsaacW would say I'm still a chip spewing LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are a chip spewing LAG; but that's ok, because I'm a preflop-aggressive ROCK [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I agree with digesting TOP before SSH. I learned poker in a fairly tough (compared to Party 50c/$1) college game with aggressive, tricky (I won't say thinking) players. I read HEPFAP and TOP before SSH came out, and I think I'm better for it. Having those reading experiences (to see how you should play against good opponents) was helpful as it kept me thinking about the game and from becoming too LAG after reading SSH for the first time.