how to use "% won at showdown" pokertracker stat effectively?

[laja]

how do you use this stat on players, obviously they are bluffing too much if it is small and only make good calls if its high, but what are some exact or approximate numbers? And what number of hands should you have on them for this to be valuable

[laja]

good stuff

[Cubswin]

unless you have a poop load of hands on a particular player i wouldnt place too much emphasis on this stat... your sample size would most often be too small to be significant.

cubs

[OrianasDaad]

As with most of the stats available in PT, most of them will not be too useful against opponents unless you have a large sample of hands against them. Use things like W$SD to improve leaks in your own game until then.

I don't build a detailed file on any particular opponent until I have over 1,000 hands against them.

VP$IP, PFR, and aggression come together pretty quickly.

Oh, and to answer your question... the W$SD stat reflects for me an overall quality of hands at showdown. If my opponent has a 50%+ stat here after 1,000 hands, then I tend to respect them on the river more. If it's less than 40%, then I can value bet on the river more against this type of opponent.

There are loose passives out there who won't call anything on the turn without a strong hand - so this number does have value, it just takes awhile to get somewhere meaningful.

[Soleo]

High WSD% shows big fold at river tendency. But you must have enough hands (better >500) with this opponent.

[mosta]

I can't check it out right where I am right now, but I suspect that 1,000 hands is a lot mroe than you really need. 500, I'm not sure if that's a good amount more or not. as far as the numbers go, I think the classic w% for a winning player, versus more or less decent opponents (NB), is between 55% and 60%. I think that's what MS Sunshine posted in a guide, and I heard that from another source. That accounts for folding missed draws, bluffing a little, having opponents who bluff a little, and making a few crying calls. HOWEVER, in Party games at certain limits, there are so many relentless, maniacal bluffers that you have to call down a lot more. And I think your EV is supposed to be maximized with a win% in the 45-50% range (if not lower?). It would be nice to get numbers from some of the top 15-30 players. when you have a number on someone (however many hands it should take): I would read 55-60% as a solid player who you should credit with good play and the ability to bluff but not going overboard. Higher than 60% is weak and you should bluff at a lot. Lower than 50% and you have to account for their post flop play. they may be over aggressive maniacs who get isolated and called down a lot. they may be weak chasers who show down any pair versus a raiser. or they may be winning players who play against maniacs and make a lot of crying calls. below 45% or definitely below 40% (if you ever see that?) and I guess they show down a lot of missed draws. you also have to consider what level you're playing at. at 5-T and 3-6 you don't get so much wild, over the top play, so a winning player probably won't need to have a w% under 50% or maybe not even under 55%. at 15-30 is where you have more winners with w% under 50%, I think. at lower limits than 3-6, I'm not sure. also at 6-max I'm not sure, but I'd guess it's like 15-30 but moreso.

[Kenrick]

[ QUOTE ]
High WSD% shows big fold at river tendency.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been trying to weigh the factors going into the showdown percentages. I don't think folding at the river is necessarily a big factor. I'm generally 60% on W$SD, but I only fold on the river 1% of the time, which as far as I know is low.

I'm thinking it's more of a value-bet thing. If you value bet a mediocre hand on the river and the other guy has nothing, he folds and there's no showdown. If you check a mediocre hand to avoid a raise or to induce a bluff, the guy gets a showdown even with a busted draw, thus raising your showdown percentage.

This may coincide with my current aggression numbers of 2+ on the flop, 2+ on the turn, but under 2 on the river. Some other people's stats I've looked at with higher river aggression also tend to have a higher river fold % and a lower W$SD.

I don't know if it's accurate or not to think along the lines of a 60% W$SD being in line with a 55% or so, just that the first player is checking and calling the mediocre stuff on the end while the second player is betting mediocre stuff more. This isn't to say the 60%'er may be missing some money, but then again maybe not if the higher % is more from the "extra/free" showdowns that a river bet would have folded out and not collected on anyway. Just a thought.

[Benman]

No way a winning player only folds 1% of the time at the river. That's way too low. What about your small busted flush draws with no pairs and no high cards. You must be calling with a lot of them to only fold 1% of the time.

[Kenrick]

Heh, yeah, of course that stat makes no sense at all, and of course I was looking at % of where you fold. Too many late nights and too much flu the past week, I think. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]