subpar hand....subpar opponents

[jon_1van]

Party Poker 10/20 7 handed

Ok. So laggy capped it against me with 3Q3 earlier (I had his split queens with a suited K) Then he went 3 bets on 4th when he bricked. 1 bet on 5th, 6th, and 7th (on 6th he got a third 3)..I made a crying call with my 2 pair.

Subpar plays too many hands. And is a bit passive...(perhaps this is just because he has the goods fewer times when he is playing)

hero 1: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__BET___________CAP
Seat 2: XXX XX 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]____FOLD
subpar: XXX XX 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]______RAIS____________CALL
Laggy : XXX XX 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]________RAIS____________CALL
Seat 5: XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]__________CALL____________CALL
Seat 6: XXX XX 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]____________FOLD
Seat 8: XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]______________FOLD


4th


hero 1: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]________CALL
subpar: XXX XX 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]__BET_____CALL
Laggy : XXX XX 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]____RAIS
Seat 5: XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]______CALL


5th


hero 1: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]______CALL
subpar: XXX XX 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]________CALL
Laggy : XXX XX 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]__BET
Seat 5: XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]____CALL


6th


hero 1: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]______CALL
subpar: XXX XX 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]________CALL
Laggy : XXX XX 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]__BET
Seat 5: XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]____CALL


River


hero 1: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]______CALL
subpar: XXX XX 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] XXX________FOLD
Laggy : XXX XX 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] XXX__CHECK
Seat 5: XXX XX Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] XXX____BET


I'm not sure how bad (if at all) this hand is. I know laggy is completely insane. But when seat 5 cold calls 3 I don't know what to think. Is this hand good enough to challenge a lag + others with?? I capped in hope of driving out someone else. Perhaps that was retarded. Should I have limped and then "saw what happened"?? I really did consider folding...but the 3Q3 was flashing through my head

[Vike]

I’d be really worried if an overcard to my pair calls 3 bets cold, especially if the player is the more "sane" one of my opponents. The saner seat 5 is the more likely I would be to lay down the hand for 2 more bets.

I would have brought it in for the force bet only.

I hate your hand on 5th street:

- Laggy has a paired door card with an overcard
- Seat 5 has a 3 flush showing

Still your cards are very alive and you are getting great pot odds.

I hate your hand on 6th street:

- same a 5th street, and subpar now has a couple overcards showing to your Jacks
- you still only have a single pair

But again your cards are very alive and you are getting great pot odds.

I hate your hand on the river:

- Seat 5 suddenly shows strength in a "showdown" pot, this is very often a very strong hand
- you have bad position to call with 2 players yet to act behind you

I am pretty sure I would not have played this hand on 3rd street, and if I did I am pretty sure I'd folded on 5th street. Calling on the river with this size pot can never be a big mistake. Yet I'd be very surprised if you won, in which case your opponents totally suck.

[jon_1van]

The more I think about it...the more I think a minimum bring in would have been best.

The biggest problem I see with this hand is this :: when the Qh calls 3 cold (and doesn't raise) I think he doesn't have QQ,KK,AA ...so what must he have??A flush draw. I then call after he spikes 2 straight hearts. This makes me a freakin moron.

I definetly hated my hand on every street...but with the pot size...and the opponent lagginess. I believe that trips Js would take it down. And I also believed Jacks up would have a slim chance of taking the pot.

[lstream]

Don't have much to say about your hand, but 10/20 now? Holy crap, you have more balls than me, thats for sure.

[7stud]

The more I think about it...the more I think a minimum bring in would have been best.

I disagree. You were in early position with a high pair, so you needed to limit the field which calls for a raise. Just because your raise didn't work out, doesn't mean it was the wrong play. Whether you should have called the two reraises on 3rd street and continued playing would depend on what you believed your opponents could raise with.

The biggest problem I see with this hand is this :: when the Qh calls 3 cold (and doesn't raise) I think he doesn't have QQ,KK,AA ...so what must he have??A flush draw.

He also knew that everyone could see his queen, and that one of his queens was dead, so I don't think just calling with two queens in that spot was that unlikely--especially if he had a suited kicker.

I think 4th street presented a lot of problems for you when the two overcards to your jacks hit the board, and then the overcards bet and raised into you.

5th street was an absolute disaster for you. A raiser paired his door card, and a limper showed three to a flush. I think it was an easy fold at that point.

In the $10-$20 games and above that I play in, when there is a lot of betting and multiple opponents, and I am not leading the betting, or I don't have a drawing hand, I can't remember a time when I won the pot. If you don't know you are in the lead or don't have a good drawing hand, I don't think you are going to win enough of those pots to make them worth contesting.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Not playing a live pair with a 2 flush against laggy bad opponents is just weak-tight. The more I watch 10/20 the more I'm convinced the only difference is a there will be a good opponent, a few players fold more and there are more LAGS. Other then that, they are just as horid, but their starting hands usually aren't Q high 7 gapped rainbows.

When your playing with loose bad opponents, Bringing it in for the full is a bad idea with a hand like JJ3. You want to see how the action developes by the time it gets back to you. See how many sane opponents call/raise to get a feel for their hands. Capping is BAD, nobody is folding and you've built a huge pot that Jacks will never win unimproved of course, the lag is capping so we are going to have to put it in anyways... Should we even call? Its going to be a big pot, lets gamb00l! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

That said, what is your image??? Why is a passive loose 8 door two betting you? Big card flush draw, 8's with a big kicker, str8 flush draw. A big pocket pair. Rolled knowing the LAG is going to give him action?

We are just going to have to chance it with the lag, hope he's pusing split 4's.

The Q door. He is the tricky one. Its more likley a pair OR he is going to try and spike an over card or two with a good draw because the table is obviously on tilt with the lag present. Again, with the lag present this isn't a bad idea, the implied odds are huge with the lag present and tilting players to spike a big two pair or a draw.


4th.

The 8 door bets, this isn't suprising, he caught a big suited card, 4 flush, Aces up, big pair, split 8's with two overs.

The lag well, we have to chance it.

Or friend the Q caught a suited card, is he the type to ram-n-jam a 4 flush? Or does he just have a pair.

Here is where you need to toss out that 1/2BB and raise if your going to play or fold. You want to annouce that your not afraid of their hands if you're afraid of their hands fold, the LAG is going to make it very costly to see a showdown and you really are going to need to improve a LOT based on what likely holding of the other two players. You probably have the BEST hand now, but the other 3 improve enough you probably will have to fold on later streets.

Raising also get the sane players to check to you on the other streets and any betting/raising on from now on can be sign your cards should be headed to the muck without a big hand.

If I'm running well and controlling the table I'd toss in that raise, but well, I'm going to post a hand that you'll make you want to never take my advice. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

5th:

Laggy make an open pair and bets, this is expected, he always bets. This is expected.

The Q door doesn't have the flush, they have a 4 flush maybe a pair with a backdoor draw. If he's that sophisticated to go for the over calls from the tilted table you should have folded 3rd when he CC 3 or on 4th when you bricked. But then again the pot was huge... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'd fold. Your going to have to catch runner runner in a multi-way pot where someone may raise at any moment and get reraised by the lag. HUGE negative implied odds. Though the pot IS huge 1:15, you don't close the action and the guy most likely to raise is right behind you and you could very well face 2-3 when it gets back to you.

All the big cards are in your opponents boards making your Jacks even weaker.

Most importantly... you have NO runner runner draws except to the Jacks full. 3's full might not be enough given the lag has paired his 4 door.

6th brings some help in that its LESS likely LAG has trip 4's, but it brings you no help as you brick again.

The Q door still refuses to raise even though everyone called on 5th. HE DOESNT have the flush or he's so passive it hurts me in my special place. The rest of the table has shown a willingness to call a 3 flush and a paired door in a multiway pot. You all have draws or are some very very bad players.

You should really raise and hope he folds it would be a shame for split 8's to spike an over card and drag your pot when LAG's pair of 4's and missed draw checks the Q door Tens up bets and you call and the Split 8's spiked a K on the river to drag the pot.

Probably a hand in the future you should have folded on 5th. Even if it maybe the best hand, in all probability its a raising or folding hand, not a calling hand.

Later,
MarkV.

[Michael Emery]

Hi Jon-

3rd: I usually always am against bringing it in for a full bet for more reasons than I will discuss here. However, given the loose-agg. players right behind you and their tendancies I dont really have a problem with this. I do however dislike the cap making the pot so large that it becomes a crap shoot on fourth. So I just call here at $30.

4th: All your opponents caught well except you. I'd really be disliking my hand here but would obviously still call. The Ace is always scary on fourth, you cant like the King raising it either, and you cant like the Queen calling cold again after it catches a heart. Since it didnt make it $40 on third it screams flush draw in a lot of cases.

5th: Heres where you get stubborn and butcher the hand. You have a very very easy fold here ( I'm sure you know this too ). We all have been there though and are guilty of calling when we know damn well we shouldnt. I do it all the time out of frustration in situations like this too.
If laggy has two small pair (lower than Jacks up) your behind, trips your a double digit dog, two higher pair than jacks up (even bad players get hands sometimes) your a double digit dog. The flush card for what already was played as a flush draw came [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. And the fear of subpar being stupid enough to raise this madness behind you with some trash [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] should have you clicking on the fold button as quickly as you can. Wait for another hand to punish them.

P.S. Was BEERMONEY the Lag or subpar player in this hand? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Mike Emery

[7stud]

Though the pot IS huge 1:15

That is a common mistake I see on this forum. The pot may be offering you 15:1 on your current bet, but that has no bearing on anything when you are on 5th street--unless you plan on folding after the next card if you miss your hand. What you should be examining are the effective or real pot odds, i.e. the amount you anticipate having to put in the rest of the way vs. the current amount in the pot plus your opponents' future bets. Taking those bets into account, the real pot odds were probably only something like 7:1 on 5th street.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

When I give pot odds its to spike a a card that improves him on the next card, NOT that he ends up winning.

When I say pot EQUITY I mean what are his chances when seing showdown.

Your are talking of some weird beast inbetween which is closer to pot equity vs pot odds. I think we are talking about a lot of different things.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[jon_1van]

Sadly, this is all true (except Beermoney wasn't laggy or subpar)

But from 5th on down I wasn't fearing a raise from subpar....and I couldn't fold for 20 bucks into this huge pot...even though I was a virtual lock for losing.

At least when I'm up this high I work alot harder to improve my game.

I was even for the session so it wasn't all bad.

Thanks for the replies. Sorry to taint this board with such a terrible hand