10-10-20 NL Hand with Ray Zee

[Wayfare]

I think an important question is how people (and you in particular) have been raising zee when he opens. Also has the table been agressive in their reraises of zee?

I would make it $400 to go trying to represent something that doesn't really want to see a flop out of position, like JJ. I don't like the pot-building standard raise out of position against zee. Either he has a real hand, or he is just stealing. You're not going to bust him unless you make him make a big mistake when you both have the goods.

If he is bluffing you must as well take it down now rather than flat call or make a small reraise because he could really damage you with a disguised holding and position. If he does have a huge hand you could get a lot of money in if he interprets your large reraise as what I described above (who knows).

More importantly, you should find a softer game [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[knifeandfork]

ray zee knows you right? what is your image? i think thats the key. is ray notoriously tight? ive not read his books yet so i dunno what he practices or preaches. i dunno i may be insulting someone but lets just say it was phil ivey ( super strong player that doesnt know you). how would you play it? im not afraid of any play here ( as of course we are splitting (rarely) or im way ahead at this point. flat callin may not be optimal though because it makes it harder to get the max out of him when he hits a good not great hand. raise it up to whatever you think he will call or inspire a reraise (im not sure what he would reraise with). Play a big pot if you can im sure if you are playing in this game you can afford the risk, imagine your image if you double thru ray! addin braggin rights and im definitely trying to get in here on the flop. and of course results please!!!!!!!!!!!!! thoughts of the village idiot,
jason

[Paluka]

I'm not really sure how to play it, but I think I prefer both flat calling and overbetting to just doing a standard re-raise.

[catamite]

Flat call and bet out the flop. May opt to reraise him if he raises you on the flop to take down the pot, depending on what flops. Either that or reraise pre-flop with an overbet, but may make for difficult playing depending on what flops. Plenty depends on table image and how the game has played out so far, whether you can reraise pre-flop without him immediately putting you on high PP or AK.

[PGarlic]

Quick question J.A. When you say Ray Zee, are you refering to the older gentleman who all night could never "flop the nuts"? He was at the main game and the whole time was complaining about how he never once flopped the nuts all night. He also warned us about the world of hurt we were gonna be in once he did flop the nuts, he was awesome. I asked him what his name was and he said Ray Zee.

[gergery]

Next time I go to the casino I’m going to wear a Ray Zee mask and say, “Oooga Booga” to all the 2+2ers I see.

If you have a strong made hand and don’t feel you can outplay your opponent postflop then I think getting more money in now seems best, so I like the slight overbet.

Any action you take has positives and negatives, and the downside of defining your hand seems less worse than the downside of letting him actually make a good hand cheaply.

And I hope you didn’t have to experience the downside of playing out of position with excellent tricky players --- game selection, anyone?

-g

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Sucker,

I'd put another $200 in and make it $220 all day back to Ray. He's now got a $320 pot and $140 more to call. Enough to tempt him if he has anything real.

Just calling seems to suspicious, especially since Ray knows you think he may be on a steal, and he know's your a damn good thinking player. Giving him a look at a flop without charging him something reasonably more pre-flop just seems wrong to me. Overbetting too much and letting him get away seems like a waste of Aces. As a matter of fact, Getting Aces when Ray Zee has position on you is unfortunately also a waste of Aces. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[J.A.Sucker]

The guy who said his name was Ray Zee was probably Ray Zee. You should have said hi to him. I never saw you there that night, but I'm glad to hear you ran well.

[J.A.Sucker]

Game selection is one thing that I usually don't have to worry about. In this case, I also did well. The must move games were terrific, and the main game sucked. So I played for about two hours, with the hope that the new players behind me would suck, and they didn't. So I left.

FWIW, if you play higher, you're always gonna have to buck great players. The name of the game.

[J.A.Sucker]

OK, so for you who were hoping that there were lots of fireworks, I'm sorry. I ended up raising it 200 more, and Ray folded. I later asked him about it, and he agreed that I did right. Some things to think about:

1. Ray is, shall they say, not going to give any action there. If I smooth call his 80, I'm gonna win jack-diddly, or I'm going to go broke. It's as simple as that. Flat calling is the worst option.

2. If I reraise a ton, as some advocated, he's just going to fold everything, and if he has QQ, I'm not getting any action.

3. Ray Zee is (by default), a little snug.

4. Raising 200 will enable me to get the money in preflop if he does have QQ or KK, and this is really my best hope.

5. Raising 300 or so may actually be the best choice of all, since it makes set odds a little thin, but will still get the money in if he has a big pair himself.