Look what min-raisers make me do

TheWorstPlayer · #1 01-09-2005, 12:19 PM

My pet peeve has become people who min-raise preflop. So now I basically re-raise them out of principle quite often. Does anyone think this is too terrible a hole in my game? I find that people will often min-raise with total garbage and they often end up folding on the flop, but they want to build the pot for their potential draws. I don't want to let them build the pot, so if I have any sort of decent hand, I want to make them pay to see a flop. I wouldn't do it at higher stakes, but I just see so many preflop min-raises at low stakes that it has really started to bother me. Anyways, here is a hand for comment. How bad was my play (pre-flop and post-flop comments are greatly appreciated)?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($50)
UTG ($14)
Hero ($55.50)
MP1 ($41.20)
MP2 ($14.25)
CO ($5)
Button ($23.60)
SB ($9.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, MP1 raises to $1, MP2 calls $1, 3 folds, BB calls $0.50, Hero raises to $5.5, MP1 calls $4.50, MP2 folds, BB folds.

Flop: ($13.25) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $13.25, Hero calls $13.25.

Turn: ($39.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: ($39.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP1 calls $5.

Final Pot: $49.75

PoBoy321 · #2 01-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Limp-raising with AJs from EP? That sounds questionable. I'd just call the min-raise, lead the flop for about 1/2-2/3 pot and slow down a little after that.

BTW: I wouldn't check the turn. Throw out about a 1/2 pot turn bet. You've now got TPDK with the nut flush draw. No reason to give free cards to some possible type of weird draw (gutshot straight, fishing for a set on the last 2 cards, etc.)

cbfair · #3 01-09-2005, 01:10 PM

I can't comment on your PF re-raise strategy, but I am curious why you checked the flop and turn here. Against a player you don't highly respect holding TPGK with an outside draw on the flop, why the check/call? If you think he'll fold on the flop, why would you take a chance by offering a free card?

His pot-sized bet on the flop looks like an attempt to buy the pot, so why would you check turn? With TPGK and four to the flush I would bet out for value here 100% of the time.

pdubz · #4 01-09-2005, 03:39 PM

Blowing minraises out of the water makes sense if you hold something like AKo or AQo but when you are holding hands like AJs or KQs or small pocket pairs ... aren't they helping you out?!

Triumph36 · #5 01-09-2005, 04:04 PM

Min-raisers often have two broadway cards or a small pair, but sometimes they have a big pair and are foolishly looking to build a pot.

You get yourself out of this quandary by raising AJs pre-flop. If this person re-raises, you know your hand is no good and you can confidently muck. Instead, the min-re-raise puts you in a difficult spot, with what you think is a strong hand but probably is not.

I love min-raises pre-flop, at least at Paradise Poker they used to be done by weak players with strong hands. I'd gladly call with my small pocket pair looking to bust them.

whodaman · #6 01-09-2005, 04:47 PM

i would bet the turn... and bet more on the river..
i think he bets the turn with a,k
you should only be afraid of a,q here.

I think he has 77-TT

TheWorstPlayer · #7 01-09-2005, 07:06 PM

Thanks for the responses. As for my preflop play: I don't like to raise AJ from EP since if people call they are likely to either have PP or have me dominated. Since I don't know which and I am out of position, I don't like to play that way. Is that wrong? I prefer to limp and then see if someone raises behind me. If they do, I assume I am dominated and fold. As I said, normally I don't re-raise, but I was pissed at all the min-raisers. And no, I don't think he was helping me out, again, because I am out of position on any potential draw. Is that correct?

As for the flop: I checked because if he had nothing, he would fold if I bet, if I bet less than the pot I was afraid he might bluff raise which would be the worst possible thing for me, and I thought he might take a stab at the pot if checked to.

As for the turn: Here is where I think I made my biggest mistake. This is already a big pot and I think I just caught him taking a stab at it, I should definitely be betting here for value, especially since I picked up the nut flush draw. Thanks to the people who have pointed that out. I was just uncertain in my read of his attempt at a steal and thought I still might be beat. In looking back at it, his bet on the flop doesn't make sense with ANY holding really. If he had a set of aces or kings, it certainly doesn't make sense. He would most likely check behind, right? If he had AK, I also think he is likely to check behind, since he is either way ahead or way behind. It doesn't really make sense from AQ either unless he is trying to steal it from AK, but there, too, it makes more sense to check behind since he should be trying to represent AAA or KKK. It only makes sense as a steal, so I should have been more confident and bet for value on the turn. I checked in order to see what he would do, because I wasn't certain of my read, but that was a mistake.

As for the river: I could have bet more, I suppose, but now I was certain it was a bald steal attempt so how much could he really call there with something like TT?

As for the results: He had KQ[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

pdubz · #8 01-09-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And no, I don't think he was helping me out, again, because I am out of position on any potential draw. Is that correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a fair enough point, but by limping UTG+1 you are going to be largely out of position anyways. The natural conclusion should -- fold AJ early (AJd is fine, but here you are looking to get multiway).

My original point was that the minraise has built the pot, without really creating 'raised pot' dynamics (i.e. where most hands are high pocket pairs/AK/AQ). A lot of hands (maybe of your suit) will also limp; J9 may come in which draws to straights you dominate. When I play AJs, I'm really hoping to make a flush or at least top-two -- and for these sorts of hands, I want to be multiway. I can get in large pots for flush over flush, or straight over straight. I can play more cautiously if I hit top pair -- giving myself room to get away from an ugly looking raise. I think you do better in general if you just call here.

You can argue for a reraise if you believe you are very far ahead of your opponent and desire to play TPTK on a JXX board or TPGK on an AXX board, and if you believe this raise is going to isolate. But think about the dynamics again here a little bit -- is your opponent paying you off in these situations? A minraiser silly enough to minraise and then pay you off with KJ is probably going to make far worse mistakes -- and I would rather not commit an error myself on the supposition that my opponent is playing even worse. What's more likely is a calling hand is only getting tangled on the flop if they are busting you -- a pocket pair or something that reverse dominates you.

In general, making a play out of anger/frustration is not a good idea. I think making plays on minraisers can be good, but doing it with AJd out of position is not the best place to do this from.

TheWorstPlayer · #9 01-09-2005, 09:18 PM

I think you're right on all counts. Except for the fact that this guy was likely to make bigger mistakes than calling a re-raise with KQs and then paying me almost 20 bucks with mid pair.

creedofhubris · #10 01-10-2005, 01:43 AM

I would pretty routinely raise a minraiser with AK-AQ, TT-AA. That's about it. And only with position. I'm raising those things UTG in a game with lousy idiot minraisers anyway, so limp-reraising isn't an issue. AJs isn't good enough IMO.

I think you should've bet more on the river. I like flop check. Turn check is fine since you would hate a raise.