Way too passive with KK

[OrangeKing]

Alright, I know this was bad. Really bad, in fact. But I'd like to get a better idea of just how badly I played this. I was afraid of JJ or AA, which in retrospect is terrible...at least I didn't fold.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (20.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

I'm normally not this passive - what happened? I didn't bet the flop, by the way, because I knew it wouldn't protect my hand at all, so I can explain that...but the turn and river make me sick.

[Shillx]

Bet the flop.
3-bet the turn.

Brad

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't bet the flop because I knew it wouldn't protect my hand at all

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a major fallacy that originates from SSHE's lesson on 'Waiting until the turn to protect'. I've seen many misinterpretations of this chapter on these boards and, AFAIK, waiting until the turn in a big pot only works if you are raising instead of betting (for instance, if MP2 bets the flop and you think he'll only bet the turn if you smooth-call, you may wish to protect by waiting).

It's true that most hands will have the odds to call you if you bet the flop, but waiting until the turn so noone has to pay for a card is the polar opposite of protecting a hand. There's really three reasons for this:

1) The obvious one is that everyone's getting to see the turn card for free. If you wait to bet, everyone gets the turn and the river for 1BB, including a free turn card. If you bet out the flop, everyone pays 1.5BB, plus they need to put down some money before seeing a single card.

In short, if you bet out the flop, they're probably getting 10ish-1 to profitable call with most draws. If you don't bet out the flop, they're getting infinity-1 to ride along for free.

2) There are players that will make a bad call here. Some fish will call with anything. Others may be holding a low-pair with a king kicker and are dominated by you, even though they think they have the odds to call. But these players can't make mistakes if you don't give them a chance to.

3) Even if everyone can mathematically call your bet with perfect odds, that doesn't mean that you're not making money off of the bet. Say you have an overpair with three players on a 2-suited flop with 10SB in it, and one decides he'll be nice and shows you his nut-flush draw. You know that there's absolutely no way you're going to ruin his odds to call you, but every bet you make is still +EV for you. Just because the others have the pot odds to call doesn't mean that they have enough pot equity to make your bet unprofittable.

But that's just my 2 small bets - I'm a newbie, so take this with a grain of salt (perhaps the grey-hairs can elaborate on this better than I can). Oh, and I'd 3-bet the turn.

Redd

[OrangeKing]

Thanks for the very helpful reply; I had a feeling I was taking this chapter - which I just reread - way too far.

[Womble]

I know what you mean. Here you are value betting (thats right isnt it?) You think you have the best hand and do not need to protect it. What are you scared off?

Waiting to the turn is usually correct if you have a low overpair on a 2 flush or s stright flop when the pot allows those draws to stay in even with a bet.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the very helpful reply; I had a feeling I was taking this chapter - which I just reread - way too far.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just you... I've seen quite a few posts of people checking because a bet wouldn't protect it.

My interpretation of this little side-note about protecting your hand is that it is really only applicable in CLOSE cases. Your one bet (or the calls it produces) push it over the 10-1 calling odds (for a gutshot, because everyone has odds for a flush draw).

But giving someone a free cards gives them infinite odds to making their draw. Instead of making them pay to see their draw, you give it to them for free!

And that violates one of the other mantra of SSH... never give a free card. Feel free to TAKE one.. but never GIVE one.

KO

[EliteNinja]

You gotta bet that flop.

Giving 4 people a free card isn't protecting your hand.