I let it go.

[SA125]

"it was nice to see that the entire table decided to keep their mouths shut around the J6o-for-a-cap-on-a-973-flop-guy."

Great post Josh and great point. I was recently playing with a J6o guy who was going from stacks to felt, stacks to felt. More than a few guys at the table were absolutely hating and ridiculing him.

When he left with stacks, I looked around and asked no one in particluar "Is that a good thing or a bad thing." The basic consensus was good riddance. Great post.

[Kevin J]

With this being the case, I agree with the way Josh handled it, since there was no way he could've been awarded the pot. At best, the lady would've been warned about the "1 player to a hand" rule and this does nothing to help Josh and only makes Jr. J-6 feel like a fool.

[IgorSmiles]

I was involved in a hand not too long ago where I flopped bottom two pair and got counterfeited on the river when the board paired. I turn my two pair up, and the guy holds his cards high in the air and says, "You win, I just have a king." and goes to muck, his pal next to him physically grabs his arm and says, "No!" And he realizes his goof and takes the pot down. I didnt call the floor over, I should have.
Another recent hand, I have top two and bet all the way, the board has 2 hearts and I know this guy is on a flush draw. River does not complete his flush but does make a five card straight on board. Of course I cant bet my 2 pair. So I check. He says, "you have me beat." not realizing the board plays and we should chop. The dealer also misses this, pushes the pot towards me, then goes for the cards. A player long out of the hand says, "No, that's a chop." And we chop. The chips were already intermingled with my stack. Again, I dont call the floor. So the point is a good one Kevin, sometimes you have to speak up and let the floor rule.

[Kevin J]

Wow, I know I'm coming off like a real nit/jerk here, but I'm really not. This is just common sense. In the hand where both of you played the board, were his cards ever shown?

A dealer cannot push a pot on hearsay. All players remaining after the final round of betting must show their cards in order to be awarded any part of the pot. Even when the board plays, both hands must be shown. So if the other guy failed to turn over his hand, how can it be a chop?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Rick- In the cardroom where you work (or worked?), what constitues a mucked hand? In the room I play in, any forward motion (with face down cards), is a mucked hand. There's a difference between "class" and outright charity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that I used to work the floor at Hollywood Park and do "other stuff" at the Bike. I just got home and am exhausted to the point of delirium but this very subject came up today.

In my estimation you would get somewhat different rulings depending on the location (e.g., Los Angeles versus Las Vegas), the card club or casino, and even the floorman within a club. I was planing on starting a well-researched, well thought through thread sometime in the future. That said, maybe a less well-researched and thought through post will have to do for now [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. (Just the thought of searching the various archives and nooks and crannies of this forum for previous posts on the subject gives me a headache!)

Generally, modern poker rules, such as Bob Ciaffone's Rules of Poker, which are similar to the rules used in Los Angeles (Bob was instrumental in the rewrite of the rule book in 1997) tend to favor awarding the pot to the best hand i.e., "Cards Speak", as long as the action is complete and the hand is discernible. That said rules collide, somewhere there still exists a "one player to a hand rule" (don't ask me to look it up now).

OK, enough background. Let's say Player A and Player B are heads up on the river. The action is check-check so its time for the showdown.

Player A tables two pair face up. Player B was on a flush draw but has made a backdoor straight that he has overlooked (at least for now).

Case 1: Player B pushes his hand face down toward the muck, then realizes his mistake and retrieves it before it touches the muck and turns it face up.

Case 2: Player B pushes his hand face down toward the muck, then realizes his mistake just as one corner of his cards barely touch the muck. He now turns them face up. It is clear to all that he turned up the correct hand, although his hand touched the muck.

Case 3: Player B holds his hand up to his neighbor lamenting his missed draw and is about to fold, but his neighbor says "Hey, you made a straight". Now Player B tables his hand face up.

Case 4: Player B holds his hand up to his neighbor lamenting his missed draw, lays it face down on the table and starts to push it toward the muck, but before it is mucked by the dealer his neighbor says "Hey, he made a straight!". Player B reaches for his cards and turns them face up showing the straight.

I had a "Case 5" partially thought up, but my brain just ran out of gas [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

Anyway, what to you think the ruling should be or would be in the above four cases if the floor was called to the table at your club? Do you think you would get consistent rulings?

I have some thoughts but I need to get some gas for my brain. Hopefully I'll find a filling station before tomorrow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
Just an interesting situation, I thought.


[/ QUOTE ]

Also interesting is that it was -EV and that you feel proud for it.

I would have asked for the hand to be declared dead at minimum, but WTF do I know?.

[JimRivett]

Rick,

Like you said in your post, it depends on where and by whom, referring to Casino/Location and Floorman.

In Josh's example, the hand of his opponent was live because it hadn't touched the muck, however I feel that perhaps the dealer should have mentioned the "one hand per player rule" to the lady.

With regard to your "case questions", player B's cards are live in all cases except case 2.

And Josh, I was pleased to see that you handled the entire episode with class and dignity which is the very least I would have expected from you. Also, on the flop, you did in fact have the best hand [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Jim

[BarronVangorToth]

Things like this happen at Foxwoods all the time and it always goes in favor of the "villain."

While I wasn't at this specific situation, I will say how it usually goes down -- and works -- as Foxwoods only counts a hand "dead" after it has hit the muck; they don't have any type of rule regarding forward motion towards it or anything, as I have seen people throw their hand away and regrab it if no action has been taken after them AND if the dealer hasn't hit the muck with it and continue on.

That said, here's what happens that I've seen:

All betting is done and the Hero shows his winning hand that is, I don't know, a set of Aces.

The Villain, the only other person left in the hand and all the action is done so he doesn't mind having his hand exposed turns his cards so that he can see them easily -- but so can his neighbors. He looks at them and the board for a few moments seeing if he wins but not wanting to just flip his hand up because he doesn't want to give away that he has playing 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] so he's hoping to ONLY show if he wins.

The board has four diamonds but he doesn't notice that part of the equation as he was on a "straight draw" due to the JKA on the board that the hero capped pre-flop, on the flop, and on the turn.

He looks and so his neighbors look on as they aren't in the hand and they'd like to get to the next hand and as he goes to fold one of them will go -- you have a flush, flip up your hand ...

... and the flush will play.

It's annoying and goes against the one-player-per-hand rule but I've seen it happen at Foxwoods a number of times (as well as Mohegan Sun when they had their poker room, not to mention I've seen it in other places as well) and.... it's just idiotic.

But it works.

Josh still deserves mad props for taking this terrible beat like a true gentleman and gamesman.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[slavic]

Hi Josh-

Well played.

Rick-

I'd say cards speak in all 4 cases. I'm assuming that the player didn't let go of the cards when they just touched the muck and they were descernable. In any case complaining about these things seems to me to be wrong. In the typical situation the calling player is fairly live and will offer the same level of play in future hands. Making a complaint will likely make him feel as if the players, rules, house are against him, and likely encourage his departure.

Thanks,
slavic

[andyfox]

I was the beneficiary of two players to a hand not long ago. Jim Rivett was sitting on my right and not involved in the hand. By the river I was head-up and my opponent bet and I called. He turned over two pair and I held my hand up and started nodding "that's good," when Jim pointed out to me that I had a straight. And it was an obvious situation: I think I had K-Q and the board was Q-T-x-9-T or somesuch.

I've seen situations where two players tabled their cards and the dealer misread the board and would have awarded the pot to the wrong player. The player entitled to the pot didn't realize he had won it either, and it was only after other players at the table pointed out the error that the pot was awarded to the correct player. I've also seen it where nobody said anything in such a situation because we all disliked the player who would/should have won the hand.