THE Omaha H/L Starting Hand?

[Cleveland Guy]

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On the other end of the spectrum, 7-2 off suit is generally considered the worst HE starting hands. Anyone know the worst O/8 starting hand?

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2222.

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I have never heard anyone make a case for a worse hand than 2222. It can't make a low, a flush, or a straight. On a rag board, all it can beat for high is Ace high or worse. With a pair on the board, anyone with a pocket pair or pairing one of the other board cards wins. With trips on the board, all it can beat is the highest kicker. I think it's a worse hand than 72o in HE.

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With trips on the board it is actually when this hand plays strongest - not that it ever plays strong, as it's still a weak play.

This hand is 100x worse than 72o for HE.

It's kind of ironic, there is no starting hand nearly as good as AA in omaha, but a bad hand is many times worse than a bad hand in HE.

[gergery]

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It's kind of ironic, there is no starting hand nearly as good as AA in omaha, but a bad hand is many times worse than a bad hand in HE.

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That is indeed odd.

I wonder how a graph would look of Holdem vs. Omaha hands
Y axis: relative power of hand
X axis: ranking of given hands

Start out with holdem and put AA on far left, KK next to it, QQ after that etc. AA would have giant spike, KK pretty good, etc, til 72o very low.

In O8, you’d have AA23ds on far left but its spike would be much lower, but then when you got to the point on the graph where holdem hands like ATo are, I think there would be higher spikes as there seem to be more O8 hands like A4s68 that are roughly comparable and also playable in right spot. Then the graph would seem to spike lower where the Holdem 63s hands are since O8 hands like 3478 are largely crap. And big dip where 72o is because O8’s quads really bite.

Thoughts?

--Greg

[QuickLearner]

Of course...I was thinking about 9 not being useful for low. But neither is a pair of 2s. Duh. I was dealt quad 3s last night on UB. UB is rigged. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Iceman]

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On the other end of the spectrum, 7-2 off suit is generally considered the worst HE starting hands. Anyone know the worst O/8 starting hand?

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2222.

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I have never heard anyone make a case for a worse hand than 2222.

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KK(K) in razz is worse.

[Spellmen]

Not to mention how angry you get that you're not playing 7CS

[KuQuAT]

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I wonder how a graph would look of Holdem vs. Omaha hands
Y axis: relative power of hand
X axis: ranking of given hands

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We seem to agree that 2222 is the worst O8 starting hand, but that's only if you're just running a simulation or enumeration of N hands against one another.

To me, this discussion has failed to capture potential betting, which is a more interesting question (especially since poker without betting is a pretty dopey game). It's easy to get away from 2222 (or any quads, except aces).

The real worst hand in Omaha is one that might trap you for many bets and still not win. That'd be a hand that tends to make second best (high, low, or both). I'd put something like KQ42 double-suited (with the suited cards being one high and one low) right up there in that department. You'll make tons of near-nut-highs, almost-nut-lows, straights beaten by higher straights, flushes beaten by higher flushes, and so on. Further, you're likely to flop a good draw (not a made hand). Say you get a flop like 35J with two of one of your suits and someone bets into you. Are you happy?

Obviously, all this depends on game texture, but the thing that I notice is that at Hold 'Em, you generally know where you are with junk hands, while at O8 you might not.

Before any of you say, "Well, that's what you get for playing KQ42", let's just assume that it was your big blind with no pre-flop raise, so you had no decision until the flop.

So my nominees for worst O8 hand are chasers. That includes hands like 2468, which look like they might build straights and lows (but in fact will often build losing straights and losing lows) are pretty poisonous.

Lord, when I'm in the big blind, do not tempt me with these hands. Just give me 2222 and get it over with.

[Cleveland Guy]

Fair point - but I think a better way of putting it is that a hand like KQ42- DS is like JT suited in Omaha.

Cleary not a "BAD" starting hand, but one that will win you some small pots, but boy will it lose you some big ones.

and one that people commonly overplay.

[BradleyT]

I would take KQ42 in the BB over 2222 any day.

[Buzz]

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I would take KQ42 in the BB over 2222 any day.

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Hi Bradley - Don't foget the double suited part! They're talking about 24QK <font color="white">_</font>double suited! Wow! (What's wrong with that hand?)

O.K., I'll concede that 24QKd is a marginal starting hand in a loose/passive game and a sub-marginal starting hand in a tight/aggressive game, but it's probably better than 75%-80% of the hands you're dealt.

Of course, I'm going to generally be seeing the flop with JT suited in Texas hold 'em too.

If the game is so tight that you can't profitably play these hands from the big blind, what's the fun in playing?

In actuality, games abound where you can profitably play these hands from the big blind. You do want to be able to read your opponents well. And you do want to find a reasonable fit with the flop. And you do need favorable odds to contine after the flop and turn.

However, I don't think you should want to play the hand at all if it's a rainbow, not even if the game is passive and you're in the zone, unless of course you're getting a free look at the flop from the unraised big blind.

Sure, you can get in trouble with 24QKd. But that can happen with any hand and goes with the territory.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

I have never heard anyone make a case for a worse hand than 2222.

OK, I'll bite. When we have 2222, we can safely say that nobody has the wheel. Since we are the only person at the table in possession of this knowledge, it gives us an opportunity to bluff in the right situation against the right opponent(s). For that reason, I'll have to suggest 6666 as a worse hand.