Overall a Winner, But the swings are too much

[Vetstadium]

I 4 table either $22's or $33's try to get in hundred a week I also surf net at same time, cook for kids etc while playing so my ROI usually around 20% for 800+ SNG's, but a full time job no just a part time if that. I enjoy playing and a hobby that makes me money. I look at it like this I could be golfing, fishing whatever all cost money I enjoy playing and get some bucks on the side too. No complains.

[stillnotking]

Assuming you can sustain those finish percentages over the long term, you should show a profit well over 90% of the time in each block of 100 SNGs. SNGs have much, much less variance than live poker (I believe they only have about 1/3 of the variance, but many people may disagree).

You're right, though, that playing poker as a primary means of income is only for those who can handle the inevitable losing streaks. It's also only for those who like the idea of playing 40+ hours a week... ugh. As a hobby that can make you money, it's great.

[PhiGamTN]

How do you manage to do all this and keep reads on the players? Or do you not really use reads and just sorta play the cards/stacks/situations... i can barely keep reads at 2 tables let alone 4 while doing other things as well

[Poolgod32]

I dont understand exactly why you are complaining. Think of this way. If I gave you the choice of putting your money in the stock market or playing poker which would you choose? I might be a little off but I believe the stock market has returned somewhere around 13% or so a year annually over the last 100 years or so. Much better than inflation but nowhere near the numbers you can acheive playing poker well. Im averaging 42% ROI in the 20s. It would take a long time to make that kind of money in the stock market or many other investment types.
You have to look at it as an investment. You put X amount of dollars in and get Y amount of dollars back. If the return on investment is high (which it is in the 20s and even the 30s) then you are wisely investing your money. I know you can make more per hour with a job but its a lot tougher to work at a job for 40 hours a week plus the travel time, gas expense, clothing, etc than it is to play poker online. If you can multitable, you can make far more per hour than most jobs pay even at relatively low levels of ROI.
Its a great hobby, job, whatever you want it to be. Monetarily it makes more sense than most jobs and the hours and working conditions cannot be beat
Anyway thats my .02

One last thing. I agree that your results are not really inline with expectations at that level, You seem to be playing not to lose rather than to win. My firsts are exactly right one with my 4ths as one poster put it. Anyway just a suggestion

[ThorGoT]

Unless you're day trading, poker isn't analogous to the stock market; in poker, you are primarily investing time, vs. money in the stock market. True, you need money to play, but the reason you can make an essentially exponential return on investment in poker -- i.e., making a reasonable percentage return on an investment of up to a few thousand *a day* -- is because of the time you put in.

[ThePost]

First off let me say great feedback from everyone.

Next, I do have a full time job and was never considering playing SnG's as a replacement, the job satisfaction isn't even close. But i did want to do it as an extra part time thing. My problem is that the swings bother me too much personally. I know no matter what level I play at, I'll have those swings. No one can win every single day. I also believe/know that I am good enough to come out as a winner overall. But when I win $150 one night, I can be happy.If I lose $50 the next night, I'm not mad about the actual financial hit, but that the fact I just worked and lost!
(I realize in poker the profit comes in a long term, or $100 for two nights work) But it is just soooo discouraging to have it like that.

My stats are almost all while 4 tabling the SnG's too, so the hourly wage isn't so tiny. (Plus I think most Party SnG's take 40 mins or so)

About my agressive nature in the end, i think the stats seem to suggest that, but I don't think I really am that passive. I only know of a couple issues with my game for the agression point.

a) 4 tabling makes it much harder to know who to bluff and who only raises with AA and so when they go over the top, you fold. (Maybe I should 2 table 20 + 2, same $ in play, but could pay more attention)

b) I read another post recently about not knowing what to raise. One BB, or 5 BB, or how much. I wondered if i wasn't being too agressive with my common raises in the SnG. But I think I had some agressive players catch decent hands, and with my somewhat small sample size, I've lost (4th) more times then I think I would if I had over 1000 games
(Who knows till I play AND record over 1000 though)


Abut my ROI being at 41%. I don't think it's a bad percentage actually. Would I like to improve that? Of course.
I think it's very obvious where that improvement will have to come from too. (20% of the time finishing 4th isn't helping my ROI!)


I might have to take a little break and clear my head / read up on some tips. And then I think I'll try
two tabling 20 + 2 SnG's and I'll record my stats for there. Plus I'll see if I remember the $100 profit over two days
theory when I'm on a losing day.

Also, I'm going to see how much I enjoy creating a new business of mine. Thats what I meant by other revenue streams. The 9 - 5 is my best ROI right now. (Yet to lose $50 at the office! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Best Regards,


Tim

[Mr_J]

"i.e., making a reasonable percentage return on an investment"

To get an exponential income in poker you need to keep moving up in stakes, which isn't possible for a lot of people (since they'll never develop the skills needed).

[Xhiggy]

[ QUOTE ]

Abut my ROI being at 41%. I don't think it's a bad percentage actually. Would I like to improve that? Of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

unless I'm doing the math wrong, I believe your ROI = 344 / [126 * (10+1)] = ~ 25%
it will be a bit higher if you get some percentage of your rake back.

and I think around 45% is the maximum ROI% with near perfect play at 10+1. I have about 25% at 200+15, though my sample size is somewhat small (a couple hundred).

about how to pay attention to plays while 4+-tabling. of course it is very demanding, but you should watch for everything. if a player min-reraises PF, watch to see what he has. you can normally very quickly tell which players see lots of flops, early on. you can see which players call small bets on low flops with just overcards, which players bet their draws. who overbets and where, etc. and just try and write as much of it down in notes in your own system of shorthand.

[Guy F]

[ QUOTE ]
about how to pay attention to plays while 4+-tabling. of course it is very demanding, but you should watch for everything. if a player min-reraises PF, watch to see what he has. you can normally very quickly tell which players see lots of flops, early on. you can see which players call small bets on low flops with just overcards, which players bet their draws. who overbets and where, etc. and just try and write as much of it down in notes in your own system of shorthand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just in total awe of people who can do this sort of thing. It's such a hugely valuable attribute in poker. I wonder, though, whether the ability to quickly memorize lots of little factoids and then do pattern recognition on them is innate or can be learned. Cripes, I can barely remember what I had for lunch!

[Poolgod32]

I think in the stock market you are investing money over time to make more money unless as you say you are daytrading...a quick hit. The theory is over time if you at least do as well as the market you make a decent return and if you beat it you are doing great. My point was that poker provides a far greater return on your money that you invest comparitively speaking. of course this means you have to play well. I wonder what Mr Sklansky would think of this analogy between poker and the stock market? Has he developed any comparisons to anyones knowledge?