Checkraising on the river

[Ginogino]

It seems to me that every time I go for a checkraise on the river, everyone checks behind me. In consequence, I hardly ever go for a checkraise (and thus don't use the river checkraise bluff, since almost anyone capable of laying down a hand for one more bet is attentive enough to note that I don't checkraise "for value".

I've been thinking about this lately, and wonder just what circumstances would lead you to think about checkraising on the river? There's the maniac who will always bet out on all streets with an AK/AQ, but I don't play against this type (not often enough, anyway).

I can envision limited circumstances where I hold suited highcards and bet them representing high card strength through the turn bet, and then hit a runner-runner flush. For instance, suppose an unknown but apparently tight player open-raises in mid position. I find KhQh in the small blind and reraise. He calls and everyone else folds. The flop comes Kd7h2s. I bet out and my opponent (MO) raises. I just call. Turn is 3h (Kd7h2s). I bet out again. MO raises again, and I call (I don't know that I'd actually advise betting like this -- the point is that I've bet out more than once showing some high card strength). River is Ah. I have to put MO on AK or AA - though KK is also possible. In this situation can I be sufficiently sure that MO will bet if I check to him to make it worthwhile to check into him? If I can't be sure he'll bet at least half the time, I should lead myself, I think.

I can envision possble parallel kinds of circumstances involving unlikely straights or boats, but they all seem very improbable. What am I missing? Are there more frequent circumstances which make you perk up and think "Hmm. May want to dust off the river checkraise play"? It seems wasteful to let a perfectly good bet go unused.

Griogino: Here is some food for thought. u have the back door nuts. The hand, in this case, is a bet situation. It is such for a few reasions. A smart player with a good hand (that can now be beat) will respect the posibility of a chck raise in this sitiution and will be watching for it, and would often just call the end,(Take one less with a win rather that pay twice to find out you have a worse hand) but would call all bets with a hand that raised 3 times. So to bet,is a good bet for value. Now to the best part, maybe if you are lucky the player because of your bet thinks you are bluffing or thinks you still have the worse hand raises into you like the first two rounds. How good would it feel to snap down the reraise, that gets called or even reraises your raise. There is way more potential value then the max two bet from the check raise, or the worst case a check check ending.

What I can not under stand is why u bet into the turn, or even after the flop to the preflop raiser. U put 2 extra bets into the pot to put MO on AA,KK,77,AK,22 in the pocket. Something that was not needed, u knew that much already. Check and, if the player bets then calling the top pair with a q kicker especially on the trun, is the correct play. If this Check then call had been the prior play, flop and turn, then a check raise on the river is more in order.
Although I bet about 75% of my made backdoor/river winner hands. It creates respect for the future bluffing oportunities. I hope this adds some value. Thanks, and please let me know what you think.

[brad]

im pretty sure check raising with medium hands on the river is very interesting but i havent been able to implement it yet.

the problem with checking trying to raise with big hands is that your opponent is happy to check behind.

top pair good kicker i think is a good hand to mix up with.

sometimes you might check it the whole way rope a dope and try to raise on end, sometimes bet the whole way and check on river, and then call or raise.

brad

[Xavier]

1) It looks like your opponent is calling with 2 big overcards and an ace hits the river(you can beat it). If you check he will bet if he hits the ace and maybe try to bluff at it if he didnt. Either way u get one extra bet.
2) It looks like your opponent is calling with top pair weak kicker on a nonscary board. A total blank hits the river. Often if u check they will bet. For example. The Board is A9552. Lets say that u raise before the flop and bet all the way. If u check the river on a total blank it looks like u dont have the ace and they will bet it if checked to. U might also induce a bluff if they have nothing.
3) U make a backdoor flush or any straight.

Once players see u do 1+2 you will probably start getting a lot of free rivers. If they start folding to the check raise then take advantage and bluff. For example with the board A9552 u had 78s, u flopped str flush draw and bet all the way. If u got called all the way u will almost always get called on the river with that board unless he missed a flush also(unlikely). U should often check in this situation. If he bets u can try to check raise bluff here.

Anyway those are just some thoughts off the top of my head. BTW, u didn't state what limit u were playing. This advice is better suited for higher limits. At the lower limits players dont value bet the river as much.

[Ginogino]

Don't Think So:
I appreciate the reply. The hand, as they say, is entirely hypothetical. I had been thinking about the question of river checkraises, and had been trying to come up with hands and situations where a checkraise might make sense. To top it off, when I started typing the post, I got all the way to the river before I realized that I'd put myself in mid position versus an opponent in the small blind -- and couldn't checkraise because I wasn't in a position to open with a check (I was betting second!). Had to hastily re-edit the thing, and then the betting became all screwed up. I agree you wouldn't open the turn by betting.

Beyond that, I see what you mean about creating a pattern of check-call up front as a way to lead an opponent into thinking he's got to do all the betting himself. Thanks!

[Ginogino]

Brad:
Thanks! I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of checkraising medium hands -- though I can see how this might be argued to be good advertising ("He checkraised with that so-so piece of cheese! I had better not bluff into him on the river if he does that.") Let me get think about this some.

When you go for a checkraise on the flop or turn (and there's more rounds of betting left), and your opponent checks behind, you at least get the benefit of knowing that in most cases your opponent is weaker than you thought AND that if you bet out on the next round he may well call with a lesser hand thinking you have nothing. This can't happen when you and he check the river.

To go for a river checkraise you've got to have good reason to think that your opponent will bet if you don't -- so maybe the whole thing is picking the right opponent to act against.
Ginogino

[Ginogino]

Xavier:
1) Your opponent looks like he's playing two big overcards and an ace hits the river and you can beat it. This implies that you have 2 pair or a set. In the case of the set, you'd be slowplaying -- maybe not such a bad idea if you hit the set on the turn. I'll think about that.
2. Against an opponent with top pair weak kicker on a nonscary board (and you have top pair top kicker, or the like). You're right. There are some players who can be counted on to jump into any situation where a player who has been lead betting up to a particular round, just checks to open a round. This is another reason to pay attention at the table.

Myself, I am a (so far) low limit player (and you're right, mostly at low limits no one is paying attention, so why try moves -- though I think situation (2) probably happens often at low limit -- some folks always play their hands the same way regardless). I live in Virginia (our motto: "If you want to play poker, you get to drive a lot"). I drive. Fortunately there's more than one thing you can do to improve your game. You can think about it. You can't think long at the table, so I try to think out circumstances in which I'd do this or that (if I were playing against attentive players), and then do what a football player does: I memorize the playbook.

Again, thanks,
Ginogino

[brad]

maybe a great time to checkraise the river is when you flop top pair, turn is overcard, you check call (its heads up on the turn) , and the river is now another overcard. i think a check raise here is very strong.

brad

G said "I had been thinking about the question of river checkraises, and had been trying to come up with hands and situations where a checkraise might make sense."

G: This might help, It all depends, and I'm sure u heard this from everyone. Key points to make a check raise work.
1)Do u for sure have the better hand. Sucks donkie bigtime to CK raise and get reraised.
2)Who was the better, who was the caller. Caller that makes the non obovus best hand on the river can many times go for a check raise.
3)Position to the other players (if multi way) & better. Can you include the other players on the check raise, could others make a mistake and raise or check raise the better (in your example if pot were multiway a 2nd place flush0. Because if u have been the caller and now have the nuts u want as many player to put one bet in prior to your raise, they are much more inclined to call your raise. Now if a player to your right bets and there are 1 or more players to your left just call because great things will happen, the last player(s) will almost always call for 1 bet, but may not cold call 2 bets if they have anything good , but they could also riase, give them the chance to do so, then check raise. U can not lose the hand.