What are you doing with small-middle pockets late?

[fl0w]

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If no one limps in front of me, I raise every time. The blinds are typically large enough that you'll win the pot without a confrontation a majority of the time. If someone plays back at you, then you have a decision, but raising preflop is automatic, IMO.

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I consider that flawed... If you're raised back you have to decide whether you'd like to play your entire stack for a coinflip at best. For me, it's either a push or fold situ.
I'd probably push.

[JohnG]

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You only have chips equal to 8x the big blind and you would fold 77 or AJ in early or mid position. Isn't that crazy? You will be blinded out in no time if you keep passing hands like this.

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I wrote, or at least meant, that I would probably fold in early middle position and play it late middle positions. i.e. fold 3rd to act, but raise it 4th or 5th to act at a 9 handed table.

It's been a while since I regularly played tournies, so you may be right and it is crazy to consider folding them in the earlier positions when at 8X BB (which I didn't look too closely at). When I wrote what I did, I was more in the mind set of being on shallow money but not desperate.

For me, desperation would be when I am approaching the point of not being able to make an allin bet of at least the pot size. I never want to be in that position. So if the upcoming blinds would make that the case, I would play the AJ in the earlier positions. Without an ante that would not be the case here unless maybe the levels were about to go up. With an ante, maybe it would be the case.

[DesertCat]

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I consider that flawed... If you're raised back you have to decide whether you'd like to play your entire stack for a coinflip at best. For me, it's either a push or fold situ.
I'd probably push.

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I'm trying to understand this. You have 8.5xBB. If you raise to 3xBB, anyone who reraises you probably knows they are giving you odds to call. So you're opponent consider it almost the same as an all-in.

And if he still reraises you, then you know he doesn't care if you call, i.e. he's got a damn good hand. You then have a chance to fold and save pushing in 60% of your chips against a big pair or AK (maybe AQ).

I guess the advantage of pushing is that he folds some hands that beat you. But is he even calling a 3xBB raise with 99,88, AJ? I'm thinking AQ/TT and higher a big stack is calling/raising no matter what you do.

I guess pushing protects a smaller pair, but I'd be afraid of running into a monster. Would you only push if you were below 10xBB? I.e. if you had 12x the BB, would a 3BB raise be preferable?

[dr_zorba]

As you set this up, you have another 2-3 hands before your next BB and more than enough after to be a mild threat to the middle stacks for another full orbit.

What is so desperate about this situation that impels one to push in with 44 or 66? Isn't that premature? Most players do not call a raise with a micro-pair, so why pick a hand one normally mucks 8-handed to shoot the works? You could pick up AA the very next hand if you're still in the game! (My level of play often results in in a short stack so I get lots of practice at being optimistic.)

[dr_zorba]

Oops, forgot AJ.

PUSH IN, with great authority and grandeur. (Hey! You could still win the tournament! Told you I'm an optimist...)

[JohnG]

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I'm trying to understand this. You have 8.5xBB. If you raise to 3xBB, anyone who reraises you probably knows they are giving you odds to call. So you're opponent consider it almost the same as an all-in.

And if he still reraises you, then you know he doesn't care if you call, i.e. he's got a damn good hand.

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Or a hand he thinks is best and just decides to go with it. A hand that may well not be very far in front, and the pot odds more than compensating us to call.

Raising less or allin are both options depending on which is most likely to win without a contest.

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I guess the advantage of pushing is that he folds some hands that beat you. But is he even calling a 3xBB raise with 99,88, AJ?

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Big stacks may well raise you with these hands to put you in. Small stacks may decide to make a stand and raise you with these hands. People can have all kinds of crap when an allin re-raise will be offering over 2-1 pot odds on the call.

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I guess pushing protects a smaller pair, but I'd be afraid of running into a monster. Would you only push if you were below 10xBB? I.e. if you had 12x the BB, would a 3BB raise be preferable?

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Without an ante, certainly.

[3rdEye]

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I consider that flawed... If you're raised back you have to decide whether you'd like to play your entire stack for a coinflip at best. For me, it's either a push or fold situ.
I'd probably push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to understand this. You have 8.5xBB. If you raise to 3xBB, anyone who reraises you probably knows they are giving you odds to call. So you're opponent consider it almost the same as an all-in.

And if he still reraises you, then you know he doesn't care if you call, i.e. he's got a damn good hand. You then have a chance to fold and save pushing in 60% of your chips against a big pair or AK (maybe AQ).

I guess the advantage of pushing is that he folds some hands that beat you. But is he even calling a 3xBB raise with 99,88, AJ? I'm thinking AQ/TT and higher a big stack is calling/raising no matter what you do.

I guess pushing protects a smaller pair, but I'd be afraid of running into a monster. Would you only push if you were below 10xBB? I.e. if you had 12x the BB, would a 3BB raise be preferable?

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That's what I was thinking; I wouldn't push because I'm likely to only get called by a hand that makes me a small favorite or a big dog (although some players would call with lower pocket pairs or ace-rag). If someone plays back at me, I can then decide how to proceed, based on any reads I might have.

[fl0w]

Yeah the whole thing is, if he raises me back I'd be pretty certain he's got a better hand than me, or at the very best situation, a coinflip.

And if he raises you back, and you decide you don't want to play the hand, you're stuck with about 6-7 big bets with blinds and antes coming up. This means next time you WILL have to push soon enough and it may very well be with a worse hand than you're carrying right now.