Playing against a 80% VPIP 30% PFR jackal?

[TMFS9]

Value Bet like a Jackal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Don't bluff or semi bluff only bet with a made hand. If they are not normal jackals and begin to notice that your peddling the nuts and don't give you action, then and only then will you want to begin semi bluffing and the like.

[okayplayer]

Keep playing against them! That's the best thing you can do...add them to your buddy list and sit at their tables any opportunity. These guys give you lots of money over time. I've definitely had my fair share of bad beats by these guys, but re-load and get it back. I think too often people get scared of these guys because they busted them on a gutshot. You welcome guys like these. Now onto a little strategy....
You can re-raise with alot more hands. And make them pay dearly. You can play more hands against him too, because you can outplay him on the flop. But don't get too attached to a hand. But when you do get a strong hand make them pay. Sometimes people tighten up even more and wait for great hands to bust him, and this is fine as long as you are getting the money when you have them, but often you are leaving money at the table. A final note, is be wary of other players in the pot against him, because often they will be waiting for their chance to bust him, so don't get caught in the crossfire.

[theredpill]

Sorry. My post sounded stupid now that I read it back. What I meant was. I don't always play 80 % of my hands and raise 30 % . Whenever I come across a real tight table, I start doing that. When I find they are folding to my raises, I raise much more often but not every hand because then they lose all respect completely. When I find they are folding to my pot size bets on the flop, I bluff more. Worked well last night. I really do it more for table image. BTW, when I bluff, I often show them the bluff. They either leave, get mad and go on tilt, or handle like a true professional. In one instance, I raise preflop with a 3 4 o to 4x the blind. This was last night on the $25 tables. Anyway, I raised and got one caller. This table was really tight and it was the only reason I was doing it. Flop came A K X . I bet 3/4th the pot which I think was about $5 so I bet $4 . Guy in MP folds and I show him the 3 4 o and he promptly left the table. Also, if you are going to do these things, showing bluffs and raising with crap. I would keep chat turned off.

I'm no expert but I'm new to $25 6 max tables but just letting people know what worked for me.

[theredpill]

Ugly, I was actually trying that and it worked for me , too but the problem was that I would go like 20 minutes without raising a hand and then I'd get AA and raise and just pick up the blinds. So to solve that I projected a loose image. I finally got people calling when I had A A . Not only did they call but they called a 6x blind raise when I had A A .

[LokiV]

Don't apologize Wayfare, you're completely right.

[LokiV]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a common thing that kills good players when playing against terrible 80% guys like this is that they underestimate them. They say "this guy is terrible, I need to get my stack in against him". Basically the good player is tricked into playing poorly against a terrible player and ends up getting in way over his head with mediocre hands.

Just treat a bad player like everyone else. If you have a great hand and get reraised, by all means, go all in, but if you have a mediocre hand and get reraised, you have to let it go. Bad players catch good cards just as much as everyone else. Solid play vs. bad players will yield positive results over time, but you shouldn't expect to take their stack on every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad players catch good hands but your odds of their holding an awful-mediocre hand are increased exponentially based on how loose they are.

Reread your statement while keeping that in mind.

[DJMaytag]

[ QUOTE ]
Value Bet like a Jackal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Don't bluff or semi bluff only bet with a made hand. If they are not normal jackals and begin to notice that your peddling the nuts and don't give you action, then and only then will you want to begin semi bluffing and the like.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem i'm having lately is that i DO bet and bet with a made hand, yet i still get called down everytime with these jokers that chase and hit their str8's, flushes, etc. Hell, sometimes they're even putting themselves all-in when i've got them beat on the flop...

Could it possibly be the stakes i'm playing at? (usually .05/.10, but i've recently moved up to .10/.25 where i was doing well at 10BB/100 for the first 5k hands, but am now down to less than 1). I know to some this is almost chump change, and many play it like play chips (especially the high rollers who visit these stakes to mess around or rebuild their bankrolls after getting wiped out).

[theredpill]

are you betting over the pot on the flop ? Say the pot is $6 on the flop and it is two suited. I had TPTK. I will bet $4. If one other is in the pot with me, he is getting 2.5 to 1 to call. He is getting improper odds on his flush but it is just small enough so that the bad players will make those calls. You want people to draw to their flush. You are ahead and you want some action. This is where you make the money. However, if you overbet the pot, I believe your variance is increased since if you lose , you lose much more. On the flop, with TPTK, you are usually a 66 % to 33 % favorite to win over a flush draw. If you bet half or 3/4th the pot, you are seeing one more card for cheaper than if you bet over the pot or bet the pot. If a 3rd card of the same suit does not hit, your % 's go to like 83 % to 17 % to win. How's that !!! ?? This is where you want to JAM IT a little more unless a scare card hits like an Ace when you hold a pair of kings. Get your money in when you are a bigger favorite. With one more card to come, you are a much bigger favorite. This way, your variance decreases and profits increase more steadily. Am I talking out of my ass here ?

[DJMaytag]

[ QUOTE ]
are you betting over the pot on the flop ? Say the pot is $6 on the flop and it is two suited. I had TPTK. I will bet $4. If one other is in the pot with me, he is getting 2.5 to 1 to call. He is getting improper odds on his flush but it is just small enough so that the bad players will make those calls. You want people to draw to their flush. You are ahead and you want some action. This is where you make the money. However, if you overbet the pot, I believe your variance is increased since if you lose , you lose much more. On the flop, with TPTK, you are usually a 66 % to 33 % favorite to win over a flush draw. If you bet half or 3/4th the pot, you are seeing one more card for cheaper than if you bet over the pot or bet the pot. If a 3rd card of the same suit does not hit, your % 's go to like 83 % to 17 % to win. How's that !!! ?? This is where you want to JAM IT a little more unless a scare card hits like an Ace when you hold a pair of kings. Get your money in when you are a bigger favorite. With one more card to come, you are a much bigger favorite. This way, your variance decreases and profits increase more steadily. Am I talking out of my ass here ?

[/ QUOTE ]

It all sounds right, but i need to work more on figuring out the pot odds for someone to continue, and what i need to do to make it a mistake for them to continue.

One example of where i'm going wrong may be this:

.10/25 blinds on UB (shorthanded full ring w/ 6 players)

I have TT (i'm between UTG and the CO, whatever u call that with 6 players)

UTG ($48.95) calls .25
Hero ($11.40) bets $1.10
CO ($3.40) folds
Button ($10.45) calls $1.10
SB folds
BB folds
UTG folds

Flop is 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero checks
Villain bets pot of $2.80

At this point i figure him for AK or A-rag where his kicker hit the flop, based on how he's played thus far. There was an outside chance he could have had 55 for an OESD, but i seriously doubted he had a great hand like a set or a higher overpair, so...

Hero bets $10.30 (all in)

and of course...

Villain calls

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

It looked for a second like i was safe if he didn't have a 5 or two, but sure enough he called with bottom pair that turned to trips with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he takes down a $20.50 pot.

Did i make the right move here with my flop betting, or did the check raise give him decent if not dead on odds to call?

I've had similar hands where i've come out swinging, but it seems to have backfired on me, or at least i got called and sucked out on anyway... see hand (properly converted!) here in another thread. Maybe part of the problem is pot betting, and maybe i should be betting more or less on the flop?

[bigfishead]

Just last nite I was in the $.50-$1.00 PP NL games...Found a player just like you describe. The first time he snapped my off my AK with K high flop when he turned a 7 for K7 two pair. I had only been at the table a few minutes but had him "pegged" already. He did afterall call my preflop raise with K7o.

So after this...(I was 2 seats to his right) I just let him raise. Depnding on the others involved I either reraised large to create the dead money making the others fold and get head up with him all-in preflop or...more often...

I just called and let him keep firing each street. Even with 2nd pair I let him fire in EP and called him down all the way. He was firing the same amount but a smaller % of the pot each street. usually $15 or so...My 2nd pair was good more than once.

As a result I got extra money with others calling with weak hands too. The bad part is sometimes those "others" will catch. However because they are often playing "HIM" not you, they are usually donating to your cause.

Whats important about this strategy is knowing whether the LAG will fold to a re-raise or not. In some cases you know he will. It's at these times I just let them bet and take the money from each round. But if my holding is precarious AND the flop is dangerous but I think he is too weak THEN I will push hard. It's usually at these times they seem to fold.

A hand in particular; I am in MP with AJo...a hand I dont often play but this table is playing much weaker. I limp after 2 other loose limpers...he raises to 7 on the button. BB calls, 2 limpers call, I re-raise all-in for 35.00 more...he calls, with K8o and 1 loose limper calls with J9o...Unimproved I win. If I dont re-raise preflop I cant call a bet on the flop.

There are many ways to handle these players. Be careful tho because they do have a real hand once in a while too.