Overconfidence with two pair

[dinero2433]

With 4+ opponents limping in to see the flop, how do you play when you flop two pair? In a pot with fewer players, two pair is usually huge - but with a ton of limpers, how much confidence can you have in this hand? What are the situations in which you might fold this hand on the flop?

[wray]

I'd have some confidence in it for sure. Are you first to act? I'd say there are so many variables that I really don't know what else to say.

[dinero2433]

Let me add a few example situations for discussion:

You're in middle/early position and decide you can limp in with 89s. There are 7 players to the flop which comes, lets say, 9s 8c Ah. You bet the pot and are reraised by a player one off the button on whom you have little information. All remaining players fold to you. What do you do here?

You limp in with K10s on the button and see the flop with 6 other players. The flop comes 5c 10c Kd. A player in middle position raises the pot, and you reraise to double his bet and assure pot odds are incorrect for any flush draw that checked in front of the raiser. The raiser quickly calls. What do you put your opponent on, assuming he has not shown any maniacal tendencies? Are you willing to escalate the betting by a raise if your opponent initiates the action? Will you call a significant bet on the turn/river if a flush or a straight seem unlikely?

The problem here becomes that you have a strong hand that is not the nuts, and you have no idea what your opponents have. I have been sandbagged several times playing two pair aggressively against limpers and have been burned by sets and better two pair on a few occassions. I was wondering how people separate action given from inferior hands like overpairs and top pair from hands that already have you beaten. Like eevrything in poker, it's likely too situational to make a hard and fast rule, but I'd love to hear thoughts on the matter.

[BradleyT]

There's a huge difference between your two hand examples.

[wray]

On the first one I call. I put him on either a straight draw or I would be a lil worried about the A with an 8 kicker. I mean I would think if the other player had AJ-AK there would have been a raise. I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be a raise on the draw because he/she is hoping for a free card.

On the second one I would call. I would be worried about a set of 5's or 10's. I certainly woudn't have a good feeling baout it.

[dinero2433]

I am aware those hands are both very different. Upon further consideration, my first post asked a question too vague to be useful, so I thought I might include a few situations I had been in where I flopped two pair with many opponents.

The decisions in both cases were in gray areas where I doubted the strength of my two pair against a field of opponents that could hold any two cards. I was simply curious to know what others might have done in those situations.

[Kaz The Original]

Here's an easy one where it's not good. 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on a 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] board against a preflop raise and 7 cold callers.


Here's one where two pair is almost always good.
K8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB when 7 players limp on a
K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] board.

[dinero2433]

I think I am willing to get busted by a set with top two pair and a non-scary board like K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as well - more often than not, I think I will win that hand.

It doesn't get interesting, however, until the board gets a little scarier than that. Maybe the real lesson here is that the flop needs to hit you ridiculously hard (set/trips or better, maybe nut straight or better) when you limp in for you to continue on with the hand. When you have numerous opponents that could be holding any two cards in the deck, throwing away two pair (even when it may be the best hand) on any significant action might be the winning strategy long term. Thoughts on that?

[Siawyn]

I run into this especially when I get a free flop and flop 2 pair.

But as to your examples.. I don't like the first hand at all. A hand like A8 or A9 is totally reasonable for someone to have here, and you would be drawing almost dead. Bottom 2 pair is something that can really get you into trouble when you encounter heat from other players.

The 2nd one is extremely tricky as well. Top 2 pair on a draw heavy board is extremely difficult to play I think without specific reads on your opponent. As you said, he could very well be sandbagging a set here. When he just calls I think we have to rule out a mega-draw such as QcJc because he should be pushing to your reraise there and getting all the money in. 2 pair is never a nut hand, so I really try to avoid going broke in an unraised pot with these kind of hands. If a rag comes off on a turn and he checks to me, I think I am betting again. Then if he checks on the river, I'm probably checking behind, because if he missed a draw, betting has very little value here, and you'd hate to put in another bet and now get raised (even though I wouldn't expect a set here, since with a draw heavy board I think they would be pushing you on the turn)

When there's a large limped pots, I prefer to play for sets and nut draws.