Were these laydowns good or weak?

[aflaba]

Were these laydowns good or weak?
Both villains are unknown.


Hand No. 1

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB


Hand No. 2

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[ctv1116]

Hand 1: the pot is probably too big to fold

Hand 2: Easy fold. This should be routine. You're raising preflop for value, but if you miss, its pretty unlikely that all 3 of your opponents also missed.

[JrJordan]

Hand 1: If he hit his K on the turn, he'd most likely try and checkraise you out of an extra BB. I'd probably raise him on the turn and fold to a three bet. If he calls then I could either check through on the river, or depending on my read there could be a decent value bet here. Obviously when the A hits the river it's a bit harder to judge that, so I might be more likely to check through.

Hand 2: SOP

[Grisgra]

In Hand #1, I raise the turn, probably fold to a 3-bet. The way you played it, I think I'm behind on the river, but I call just to see what he had for info. Did he retake the lead with the king, or retake it as a semibluff because all of a sudden he had two-to-a-flush? I see a reasonable amount of the latter in 5/10 on Party. Obviously, if that's what he had here, then you're doomed on the river, but it's something that would be good to know for the future.

Hand #2 is fine. Maybe I raise the flop, try to see a free card on the turn, but you're probably beat.

[aflaba]

Thanks for the replys.
I discoverd later that the guy from the first hand was a maniac. So I figure there was a chance I had him beat there...

Only a few minutes later hand No. 2 came up. I didn't like folding but I felt it wsa the only thing I could do. The aggressor showed A9o and took the pot home with A high... was I mad.

These hands really scrambled with my had.
I'll start calling more.

[aflaba]

Your thought there about raising the turn on the first hand is interesting.

I think I have calling hands I'm not sure are best or not as my standard play.

When raising the turn:

Aren't you afraid to get three-bet by a aggressive player, holding a flush draw or something else? (Or a maniac just holding a 7 or a straight draw.) If I raise the pot is 10 BB, he only has to re-raise some kind of semi-bluff or bluff very seldom for this to be catastropic.

-----

In my experince the only benefit with raising the turn is that I might stop him from outdrawing me. I feel a raise for value is a little to bold. Most players don't fold to turn raise though, especially not in this size of a pot, so most of the time he still would get a chance to outdraw me on the river.

And what if he bets again on the river? Do I fold if he bets the river when ex. a 9 or heart comes? I think I have to call. So if he hits the river most times I'm in for an extra bet.

By calling it down I always only cost myself 2 bets and if he has nothing I encourage him to bet the river as a bluff as well.

I'm not sure how to weigh all these factors together.

I still think calling the turn was a good decition. I'm not sure though. Feel free to write more about the subject.

-----

If the flop was instead 6Q7r for example and the same action occured. Then I should call the turn, you agree?
**Because he is unprobable to outdraw me
*I want to encourage a bluff on the river if he has nothing.
*I don't want to be bluffed out
*I don't want to pay of an extra bet on the river

[aflaba]

The free card idea is interesting. Since he threebet I was fearing a big pocket pair or AK. I didn't want to invest to much money when there was a decent chance I was drawing close to dead.
AA - zero outs
KK - 7 outs
QQ - 7 outs
JJ - 10 outs
AK - 3 outs
... hmm, not to bad really. I agree I could have raised here. Do you think it was a close desition or that raising the flop was clearly better?

I almost never raise in this spot multiway, but I'll start considering it more.

[RunDownHouse]

I agree with the postflop play others have posted. However, wouldn't you guys raise Hand 1 preflop? That would also make the hand much more manageable.

[sammy_g]

Hand 1: I make a crying call on the river getting 10:1.

Hand 2: Why is everyone saying hand this is a clear fold on the turn? You're getting 9:1 and might have as many as 10 outs. Of course, you don't close the action, and you could split with another ace if you hit your gutshot. Also, there is a slim chance you are drawing dead. Still, this doesn't look like such an easy fold to me. I might peel one off. Am I nuts?

Oh, and consider raising the flop in hand 2. You might get a free card, and you're very happy if you can make anyone else with an ace fold.

[Randy Burgess]

With Hand 1, I don't like your flop raise - &gt; turn call -&gt; river fold. You had to know the chances of overcards coming were very likely--what was your contingency plan? At any rate it makes no sense to me to call turn, fold river.

The argument for raising the flop is not that you necessarily think you're ahead or that he'll fold right there, but that if a small scary card comes on the turn he may check-fold a better hand than yours. If this is your plan then I would go ahead and call down if overcards come--in a 6-max game I'm more interested in seeing what he raised with than in trying to guess whether I'm ahead or behind. I don't like a turn raise when the King comes because you so little information about this guy.

There's also an argument for not raising the flop, but just check-calling him down now that it's headup. Admittedly you'd be giving him slightly more of a chance to draw out on you, but again, if you don't know much about him, you can't justify going wild with your underpair. It's a more passive approach but shouldn't be scorned.

Someone suggested raising preflop. It really depends on the nature of the table. You have position, but a preflop raise is only justified if it's a relatively tight table post-flop over which you have good control. And if there are still two opponents you have no information about, you don't have this yet.