Tight and unimaginitive player needs advice

dauler · #1 12-26-2004, 08:32 PM

I’m pretty much a tight and unimaginative player preflop, and I can only classify my postflop play as confused. I’ve been playing for about a year and I’ve read a bunch of books including Sklansky’s HEFAP, TOP, SSH, PL&NL Poker and Psychology of Poker, although I haven’t studied them deeply. I play about 17% of my hands preflop and raise 7 percent of the time preflop, which I think is pretty solid and I think is the main reason that I don’t lose more money. I still have some confusion regarding marginal situations preflop though, and postflop errors cost me my stack way too often. I think I’m both tight and aggressive pre and post flop, but my judgement of when I need to fold and when I need to raise has problems. I think the following questions summarize the main errors of my game:

1) What do you do after you’ve raised preflop, get callers, and miss?
-If you’ve only got 1 caller and the flop is low cards

*Hand 1*
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

SB ($24)
BB ($5)
UTG ($19)
UTG+1 ($38.85)
MP1 ($157.45)
MP2 ($36.05)
Hero ($23.75)
CO ($8.75)
Button ($31.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($5.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks. Hero…

Final Pot: $5.25

-If you get multiple callers and flop is low cards

*Hand 2*
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter

Hero ($27.45)
UTG ($52.3)
UTG+1 ($24.25)
UTG+2 ($4.11)
MP1 ($31)
MP2 ($23.6)
MP3 ($8.4)
CO ($40.22)
Button ($16.7)
SB ($57.77)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $1.5, UTG calls $1.50, MP2 folds, SB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks. Hero….

Final Pot: $6.50

-If you get 1 caller in the BB, or a limper, and flop is ace high

*Hand 3*
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

MP3 ($31.9)
CO ($25.58)
Button ($15.9)
SB ($49.2)
BB ($36.65)
UTG ($24.05)
UTG+1 ($20.12)
Hero ($52.3)
MP2 ($0)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero…

Final Pot: $4.75

2) When do you bet at a pot with 3+ players in an unraised pot that has been checked around?
If you don’t make a hand is it ever worth it to completely bluff on the button when it has been checked around to you? If it is, what do you look for to tell you that a certain opportunity is a profitable one? What about if you check behind and it is checked to you again on the turn? How does the texture of the board affect your willingness to bet, should you be more willing to bet at ace high boards or rag boards?

3) What hands do you blind steal with?
I’ve tried blind stealing with hands like A2o because I figure that I’m favored to have the best hand of the blinds, but I have no clue what to do when they call. If I flop an ace, I can’t be sure if they have my ace dominated. I’ll usually bet/check/call for flop turn and river actions in that situation, or if they check again on the river and a pair of aces is still likely to be good, do a value bet on the river. If I don’t flop an ace and they still check to me, is it still an automatic bet? What hands are actually worthwhile to try to blindsteal with and how do you proceed with them in different situations?

4) How do you handle hitting weak hands in the big blind in an unraised multiway pot?
An example would be K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flop against 3 limpers, or 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on an 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] board with 3 limpers again. Do you check and call, bet out on the flop and check and call on future rounds, or what? I think I get too attached to these.

5) How do deal with the possibility that your premium hands are dominated?
The following is an example that came up recently.

*Hand 4*
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) converter

UTG+1 ($26.25)
MP1 (LooseAgro) ($54.25)
MP2 (Solid) ($23.5)
Hero ($22.5)
Button ($34.55)
SB ($24.3)
BB ($22)
UTG ($35.8)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 (LooseAgro) calls $0.50, MP2 (Solid) raises to $2, Hero calls $2, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, MP1 (LooseAgro) calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
LooseAgro checks, Solid bets $7, Hero raises to $15, LooseAgro raises to $30, Solid calls $14.5, Hero calls $5.5.

Turn: ($58.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)

River: ($58.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)

Final Pot: $58.75

I knew that preflop the tight guy had either AK, AQ, KQ, or AA-TT. Should I have somehow put him to the test preflop? I feel like he would have folded AQ and KQ, called with AKo, TT or JJ, and reraised with QQ-AA and possibly AKs. When he bet into the flop I didn’t know whether he was doing it with an overpair or if he had missed with his overcards and decided to bet at a flop that likely didn’t help his opponents. Should I just usually fold preflop in situations like this where I’m either a marginal favorite or a big dog?

6) How do you read the typical players hands?
I’ve got pokertracker, but I don’t really know how to apply it to hand reading. I use the game time feature to keep track of who the really loose and really tight players are, but don’t know how to apply any of the information it gives to postflop information. What key information do you look for to tell you that players are loose/tight or passive/aggressive postflop? How can you tell whether a check call represents a draw, a weak made hand, a slowplay, or could mean absolutely anything since this guy will call down with crap all too often? What does a min raise typically mean to you if you assume this player is typical? For example, what would you do on the flop and plan for the rest of the hand in this situation where you have no read on your opponent?

*Hand 5*
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP1 ($9.25)
Hero ($53.85)
MP3 ($43.1)
CO ($30.17)
Button ($14.25)
SB ($24.25)
BB ($62.51)
UTG ($23.35)
UTG+1 ($44.25)
UTG+2 ($24.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls $0.50, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button raises to $1, SB (poster) calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50.

Flop: ($4) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2, Button raises to $4, SB folds, BB folds, Hero…

7) How much do you bet?
I want to make my bets big enough that they make it wrong for draws to keep drawing, but it’s hard to balance that with the fact that I want to keep the pots small with hands like a high pair. Since free cards are no longer an issue on the river, do you typically reduce the amount you bet in comparison to the size of the pot? What other factors do you consider when deciding what size to bet?

Sorry for making this so long, but I feel like my game is really weak in a lot of areas. I lose about 1BB/100 hands on average, enough to make learning frustrating since I’m losing money while I’m working on my game. Any area that you have insight in, please feel free to comment on it, don’t think that you need to respond to all of my questions to give a reply. Thanks a bunch for reading through.

m2smith2 · #2 12-26-2004, 09:34 PM

I think this is tougher on-line. Imagination is largely overrated in on-line play. In live play I point out that you want to be sure to raise with rags now and then and not just AK. Rags are gonna flop and you don’t want people moving you off of big cards every time it happens.

As you noted later on in your post, people tend to expect a pre-flop raiser to follow through, so automatically betting a raggedly flop won’t necessarily mean much. But, keep in mind that when you raise with AK you will get calls every now and then from dominated hands like KQ and KJ (usually suited, at least). So, I’d say a post-flop pot-sized bet on a rainbowed board is worth it at least two-thirds of the time.

I think the raises are a little small, FWIW. Being consistent in your metric is more important, but 3x the pot to put people to the test in NL pre-flop.

Jacks – “Flop ‘em, fold ‘em, or [censored] ‘em.” Johnny Moss.

soah · #3 12-26-2004, 09:40 PM

1) On the first two hands just bet as the flop is very unlikely to have hit anyone. On the third hand, raising KQ from MP in an 8 handed game is too aggressive.

2) Most opponents play too loose, so take advantage of that by betting more with marginal made hands (top pair) and bluffing less often. Unless the others in the pot are very tight, I wouldn't take a stab at the pot unless I have outs against most reasonable hands which could call me. Two overcards at least, preferably a draw at the nuts.

3) Stealing the blinds is fairly worthless in a NL cash game. The risk:reward ratio is way out of whack. Remember that the big pots come when both players make good hands. With A2o you very rarely make a hand that's better than an opponent's good hand.

4) Top pair/crap kicker is not a hand I want to put any money in the pot with on the flop. Once again the risk:reward ratio is no good. Much of the time you are drawing near dead.

5) JJ is not very much different than 77 against a solid preflop raiser. If I respect a player's raises, I'm not calling 10% of my stack preflop with JJ. If you're behind to AA-QQ you don't have enough implied odds to call for set value. About half of the time the flop will come with an overcard and you will have to fold. So basically you will only flop an overpair about half of the time, and even then you will frequently not have the best hand. Essentially with JJ against a solid preflop raiser you are either 50/50 to win the hand, or you are way behind, but it is very rare that you are way ahead. It's also important to consider that your opponent will not pay you off with AK or AQ if they miss the flop -- in order to win a big pot, you must make a set and hope you are up against top pair or an overpair.

6) You can generally assume that they will be playing their better hands and folding their weaker ones, and raising with their strongest hands. If someone who raises 10% of their hands limps in, and I have AJ, I will assume that I'm not up against AK or AQ. If someone only raises 1% but limps in with 70%, I'll still feel pretty good about AJ. If they raise 1% of their hands but only play 15% of all the hands they are dealt, then I'm going to be concerned. They probably aren't limping in with weaker aces or hands like QJo. If I flop a pair and get action, I'm most likely beaten. For playing habits and stuff I usually just make notes each time I see them play a hand in a manner that seems interesting/important/unusual.

7) There was another thread about this posted just the other day. There's not really any short answer.

I don't have time to proofread all that I've written so let me know if I wrote anything that didn't make sense. =P