this one's bugging me...does anyone do anything different?

PokerGoblin · #1 12-24-2004, 02:42 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

UTG ($14.1)
Hero ($47.1)
UTG+2 ($31.35)
MP1 ($68.99)
MP2 ($22.25)
MP3 ($19.1)
CO ($31.35)
Button ($26.45)
SB ($26.75)
BB ($4.5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2.5, UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $4.5, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($9.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $3, Hero raises to $10, MP1 calls $7.

Turn: ($29.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $10, MP1 calls $10.

River: ($49.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 (action removed)

A few sidenotes, Villian is rather loose, but will fold if he has missed. VPIP is around 60% has shown down some real crappy hands. It's not difficult to get him to lay down a hand with a pot sized bet.

I call his raise preflop. Postflop he bets $3 into a $9.75 pot. That means to me the flop didn't hit him hard. I raise my TPTK. He hesitates, then calls. Right now my read is 99,TT,JJ, KK, AA or AK.

After my turn bet, he hesitated for the whole time allowed, finally calling. Now I have him on AA, KK, or AK of clubs, not raising for fear of a set.

I was leaning more toward the AK of clubs, just because I would have expected a reraise post-flop from AA or KK.

When the 10 of clubs fell, I knew there wasn't anything he could have possibly held that I could beat.

I think I played it right, only real debatable issue is should I have pushed in my whole stack on the turn?

I am curious as to other's opinions on this.

Thanks

PG

LokiV · #2 12-24-2004, 03:33 AM

This is the point where MP uses his great position to beat the bloody piss out of you. lesson learned? apparently not [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
calling a reraise w/ q/a offsuit is the shoddiest part of the hand, but if he was a maniac then it is acceptable. you should overbet if you believe he will continue w/ any part of that or a draw. do not let him improve without paying.

uh, you way underbet the pot on the turn, when multiple draws are available. you did not ascertain any information as he will call another $10 of course when he called the first $10.

this hand is not close to what i'd consider some good poker as you are hinting maybe it is. sorry buddy.

mr pink · #3 12-24-2004, 03:42 AM

yeah, sorry to say it but i think i would have bet the pot on the turn and fold to any decent sized reraise. i think by betting on the turn, what you bet on the flop, it implies weakness so you're just inviting him to call. when you check on the river, you're basically telling him to bluff you out.

but of course, i am new to nl so feel free to disagree. overall i'd have bet at least $25 on the turn and gone from there - folding to any serious reraise.

peace - jeff

Jon34 · #4 12-24-2004, 04:54 AM

Ugh, tough hand here. I'm sorry to say, but I do agree it wasn't played optimally.
(is the big blind here .50 or $1? I assume $1 for the sake of this post but it doesn't really matter on the flop and beyond)

Preflop:
I dont like raising AQo in EP. I know others might not like the line I take with it, but I generally limp in EP with it at low limits, and with shallow stacks, I don't usually call if I get raised. If its a very aggressive table with lots of preflop raising, I'll just fold. But if there is only a raise every few hands, I prefer limping and letting the Ax hands in. A raise by AQ is usually only called by hands you don't want to play against.
Also, if its really $1 BB, then I hate the raise of 2.5x. Make it 3.5 or 4x at least. If its .5 BB, well, its a solid raise, but I dont like it.
Next, you call a small reraise out of position with a hand that you likely don't want to be up against. Since its a sissy raise, folding is silly, but its still not a good situation.
On the flop is a little tricky. If he is on a flush draw, be it AKs or similar, your raise still gives him odds to draw, as he is getting better than 3 to 1. If you pop it to 13 or 16 or more, it should cut his odds more, and make the turn decision a little easier. You could still be behind AA or KK (or even QQ, 88), and AcKc isn't a fun hand to be up against.
The turn is the biggest problem here. A 1/3 pot bet gives him 4:1, and tells you nothing. You are now also behind JJ and QJ (unlikely). Given that you have only about 30 bucks at this point, its push or check and fold (or call depending on read/betsize, as a minbet would be of course callable). Betting 10 doesn't do anything. If this player is as bad as you say, this looks like a case of grit your teeth and push to me, as you probably beat the wide array of hands he could have. If he hasn't raised out of line much though, I'd lean more toward caution.
All that said, If you limp with this preflop, you aren't playing a big pot for you whole stack with a TPTK, nonpremium type hand.

Going to bed, I'll check back tomorrow, good luck.

PokerGoblin · #5 12-24-2004, 11:21 AM

I appreciate everyone's opinions, and about 90% of the time they totally apply, however against this opponent, I feel I took the correct line, other than the bet on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
when you check on the river, you're basically telling him to bluff you out.

[/ QUOTE ]

He wouldn't have been bluffing. At this point I am beat and I give up.

If he had AA or KK he'd have pushed after I checkraised the flop. Since he didn't, I have him on some kind of drawing hand.

My turn bet was abysmal. I think $20 would have been better. His hesitation before calling I think pretty much screamed AK clubs. I was sure I had the best hand at that point. I was going to push if the river bricked.

Yes AQo sucks in that position, and I remembering thinking to myself, anything other than a queen high flop and I am out... well he only bet $3 into a $9.75 flop...why would he want to give me better than 4-1 odds with just an overpair? I think he wanted to be able to check the turn if he missed, for a free river card.

-----------------------------------------------------------

My read on my opponent was not accurate, in fact, it wasn't even close. He held pocket 10's, and rivered a set. The only reason I know this is because he didn't bet the river.

This, of course, makes my turn raise even worse, as I suspected I may have the best hand, I didn't do anything to protect it. The turn card was an offsuit jack, giving him a gutshot draw and a total of 6 outs.

PG

PokerGoblin · #6 12-24-2004, 11:25 AM

Oh yea it was .50 BB at party.

LokiV · #7 12-24-2004, 07:20 PM

If you think you have the best hand, why don't you push on the flop or turn vs. multiple draws? You will not improve your hand and you are not last to act (so you can safely check).

Since you don't believe me I'll make it caps: WEAK.

PokerGoblin · #8 12-24-2004, 09:42 PM

I think we've established early on that my turn bet sucked. In all honesty, I am not sure if my undersized bet is because I got greedy and wanted to win more at the risk of being outdrawn, or if I didn't bet more out of concern of pot committing myself in the event that he pushes.

If you think I am a fish, then add me to your buddy lists. I play mostly on Party, $25 NL, .50/1.00 to 5-10 limit. I also jump into the PLO8 (all levels) on a regular basis.

Happy early Kwanzaa

PG

LokiV · #9 12-25-2004, 12:19 AM

I am not calling you a 'fish' or challenging your manhood. but it is this quote that implies you still think it was a 'good' hand overall:

[ QUOTE ]
I feel I took the correct line, other than the bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

we all have a lot of misplays, it's why we play these limits. don't assume my criticism is calling you an overall poor player or that i'm on an egotrip.

happy holidays to you too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

PokerGoblin · #10 12-25-2004, 10:52 AM

OK LOKI, you're off my 'people to bust' list. Haha

Making comments in regard to hands when I know the results makes it difficult to be objective... the whole point was that I played it according to my read that I had the best hand postflop. That particular opponent was loose and rather reckless (to the point of near impossibility of putting him on a hand preflop). His postflop skills were poor. That's the point overall.

It wasn't meant to be a bad beat story or anything, that's why I didn't post the results initially.

Take care

PG