How can you win against this?

CraigNYC · #1 12-19-2004, 11:44 PM

PokerStars 10,000 FFP weekly tourney, top 4 finishers win spots at the WPT Bahamas event in January. Most players in this thing, like me, won their seat by winning a 200 person tourney during the week. So I was thinking players would be pretty tough.

Blinds are at 50/100, nothing out of the ordinary with the players at my table. A few action hands here and there, a few all-ins but many hands fold around to the blinds now ever since they went to 25/50. I have been short stack for a good while but just doubled up to 1200. Most people at my table had 3,000-5,000 in chips. A few hands later I'm dealt A-Jos, call, everyone folds but the BB who raises 300. I thought about it for a good while, and decided to call.

Flop comes 2s-5s-8s. I do not have a spade but I decide to make a move all-in with my last 700. I figured chances are he didn't hit a flush and bluffing to pickup 500-600 in chips felt very worth it at the time. Opponent has 3000 stack at this point and calls. He has A-4 with the 4 being a spade. I can't believe my eyes...no flush comes but he hits a 4 on the river and I'm busted out of a tourney I was dying to play in.

Needless to say, I am frustrated. How does this guy know I didn't have a flush...or top pair...how in the world did he raise 300 pre-flop with A-4os? After the flop the guy had nothing. And he calls my 700 all-in. I had been short stacked for a long while at this table and was playing super-tight the whole time. I know I probably played this hand badly but the way it played out I am stunned.

Can anyone shed some light or perspective on this hand? I admit I am steamed because I got burnt trying to pulloff a bluff, but I don't see how this guy could risk 25% of his stack on a drawing hand like this. It makes me feel like winning one of these things is like throwing a dart at a board while blindfolded.

JaBlue · #2 12-19-2004, 11:57 PM

You'd be surprised how accurate you can be when throwing a dart blindfolded.

Anyway, this guy played the hand horribly and you got your chips in as a favorite. What else can you do?

TheJackal · #3 12-19-2004, 11:58 PM

As far as the hand goes, you either need to fold or move all in preflop. Depending on the player and how LAG he is, (which is at least quasi-loose given he raised out of the blind with A4o), I wouldn't say an all in is out of the question. I think your worst play is calling, since you are tied to the hand given you have already committed nearly 50% of your stack.

paland · #4 12-20-2004, 12:05 AM

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but I don't see how this guy could risk 25% of his stack on a drawing hand like this

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How can you not see?? I mean, you risked 100% of your stack on NO PAIR!!??

If three suits flop and I don't have any of them, then I'm getting out of the pot. Sure he played poorly, but you played poorly too. In tourneys, fold and wait another hand. They will come.

CraigNYC · #5 12-20-2004, 01:06 AM

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If three suits flop and I don't have any of them, then I'm getting out of the pot. Sure he played poorly, but you played poorly too. In tourneys, fold and wait another hand. They will come.

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I never bet out into 3 suits when I don't have any of them. With 9 players and me short stacked, maybe I should have laid down the A-J to the raise. I seriously considered doing that. Or pushed all-in before the flop.

But I don't think my play was very poor. This was a calculated bluff. If the guy was sitting on As-Qs then so be it I bust out. Or even if the guy was sitting on just As I could understand. But a 4? I still don't get it. I wasn't risking 100% of my chips on no-pair. I was betting my stack that he didn't hit anything on the flop and I was right about that. But here I sit, busted. In the end I guess you're right. But my post wasn't about my play in the hand, I can live with my bluff-attempt, it was about how to get through a tournament with 200 players and some of them will make calls like this. Between bad beats and guys like this, sometimes it feels like you are walking through a field of random land-mines when you are playing poker. Bad beats I'm used to but just trying to wrap my head around this one. Funny thing is I would say my opponent smelled my bluff, somehow, but it's hard to even say that considering I was in the lead the whole time.

MLG · #6 12-20-2004, 01:20 AM

It wasnt pushing on the flop that was poor, it was your play of the hand up until that point. Limping, and then calling the raise were bad decisions. His decisions were worse, but yours were also bad.

TheTimeIsUp · #7 12-20-2004, 01:28 AM

This was very awkward play..but definalety wasn't as bad of a beat as you said. He had an inside str8 draw, flush draw, plus the 4, giving him 14 outs and a decent shot.

CraigNYC · #8 12-20-2004, 01:53 AM

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This was very awkward play..but definalety wasn't as bad of a beat as you said. He had an inside str8 draw, flush draw, plus the 4, giving him 14 outs and a decent shot.

[/ QUOTE ]I hear ya, but I'm not saying this was a bad beat. Far from it. I deserved to lose the hand. I just find it hard to buy that my opponent thought he had 14 outs. If was him I would assume that I at least had a spade in my hand higher than a 4, which also eliminates the straight draw. Through bad play, I thought I had my opponent in a position where any good player would fold. But he didn't, so obviously I was wrong.

CraigNYC · #9 12-20-2004, 02:03 AM

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It wasnt pushing on the flop that was poor, it was your play of the hand up until that point. Limping, and then calling the raise were bad decisions. His decisions were worse, but yours were also bad.

[/ QUOTE ]MLG, I wasn't concerned so much with my play early in the hand as I've said. But on that topic I am curious. Do you think I should have folded my A-J? The table was pretty quiet overall, and no one at my table had a big stack versus the field. When the BB raised 300, which was definitely a larger raise for this table, I figured he had a solid hand. But I didn't want to muck my A-J perhaps that was the mistake. But I also didn't want to push with my A-J against a stronger hand either, figuring he'd probably call regardless. So that's why I decided to call and see a flop.

MLG · #10 12-20-2004, 02:11 AM

The problem is that you are risking almost 1/3 of your stack to look at a flop. Generally speaking you should apply the 10x rule. That means if you have about ten times the size of the big blind you should either move all-in or fold. Don't limp, and certainly don't limp and then call a raise. Either fold, and don't put any money in the middle, or move-in to begin with.