QQ Misplayed?

LilPlaya · #1 12-19-2004, 10:37 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (18.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, CO folds, Button caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (15.66 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, Button calls $3.50 (All-In), Hero calls.

River: (24.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26.25 BB

I felt their was no other way to play this hand, thoughts?

LilPlaya

James282 · #2 12-19-2004, 10:39 PM

You felt wrong. You played this like a calling station, not a winning player.
-James

billuhbong · #3 12-19-2004, 10:46 PM

ur most likely beaten, i feel like utg+1 has a10 considering he didnt raise preflop and got dragged into the pot but i feel like u should be leading the action and hoping the board pairs, when river doesnt pair ur kinda screwed but definatel call this down. i really wanna know who won this hand i feel like u didnt win. tell me

LilPlaya · #4 12-19-2004, 10:56 PM

How would a winning player play it?

LilPlaya

Nick C · #5 12-19-2004, 11:12 PM

I would 3-bet the flop and probably lead the turn before slowing down.

Nevertheless, UTG+1's flop call/3-bet is a real concern, especially since he's willing to do it on a broadway board after preflop got capped. I think there's a good chance he has AT or T9 and you need to outdraw him. There's also some chance Button has KK, which would really be a disaster as it would leave you drawing to one out. Still, I think AA or AK are more likely for the Button.

Anyway, the reason I would probably lead the turn is that I don't want to give a free card to UTG+1 if he holds something like TT, I could be ahead of something like JJ or KJ, and I do probably have a lot of outs if I'm behind. However, Button either likes his hand a lot or is determined to go all-in, so there doesn't really seem to be much danger of UTG+1 getting a free card anyway. And there is a good chance that you're drawing.

I think check-calling the river is fine.

LilPlaya · #6 12-19-2004, 11:21 PM

Your read was right on UTG+1, and it was my read as well (knew he hit the straight if not AT then T9).

UTG+1 has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Button has Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I realize I should of three bet the flop.

When i realised I was behind (after the flop cap) I knew I had odds to call but initating the betting wouldn't be value betting would it?
(Especially considering I wouldn't like to see another K because even though I don't put either on KK he could have KQ or KJ)
But even at best assuming all my fullhouse/quad outs are good (which they weren't, 2 out are gone) i am:

Flop (7 outs)

2.59 - 1 to improve by river yet only getting 2-1 on a raise

Turn (10 outs)

3.60 - 1 to improve by river yet only getting 2-1 on a raise

No value betting possible, right?

LilPlaya

Nick C · #7 12-20-2004, 12:06 AM

If you're definitely behind on the turn then a bet would not be for value. I think the possibility that you're ahead combined with the possibility of going on to win even if you are behind is the reason to consider betting.

In this particular hand, though, I don't actually think it makes much difference. Button and UTG+1 are not going to let you see the river cheaply. You'll only get to see the river cheaply if UTG+1 was call/3-betting a draw on the flop (or has something like two pair and is scared by Button's flop cap) and decides to slow down, in which case you want bets going in (unless you're behind the Button). So I think you might as well go ahead and bet. That way you won't pay any more when you're behind but you'll at least be sure of some bets going in if you're ahead.

If Button didn't seem so determined to go all-in, then I think your turn decision would gain greater significance.

Anyway, I don't think check-calling the turn is bad. UTG+1 is very much playing like he has a made straight.

StellarWind · #8 12-20-2004, 12:56 AM

Obvious 3-bet on the flop. You have a very strong hand and you should bet it very aggressively to make the maximum amount of money.

Also Button is running out of chips. Players in his situation often force the hand all-in by betting and raising with less than normal values. That's another reason to like your hand. Plus if you are up against KK you want to get past his stack as fast as possible and start a side pot against the other players.

The call-raise is an unforeseeable development. It has "straight" written all over it. Now your goal should be to reach showdown at minimal cost. Button has $15.50 left in his stack on the turn. Betting out leads to bet-raise-reraise $3.50 all-in and UTG+1 will cap it at $21.50. The actual line of checking holds the turn to three bets for $18.00. Checking is best unless you believe you are the favorite to beat UTG+1 for the side pot. I certainly don't believe that.

Note that if Button has $14.50 you need to bet. Bet-raise-reraise $2.50 all-in and UTG+1 cannot cap ($2.50 < 1/2 BB) so you get out for $14.50. Checking still leads to $18.00. UTG+1 could get $18.00 after you bet by call-raising, but he's unlikely to think of that.

Nick C · #9 12-20-2004, 01:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Button has $15.50 left in his stack on the turn. Betting out leads to bet-raise-reraise $3.50 all-in and UTG+1 will cap it at $21.50. The actual line of checking holds the turn to three bets for $18.00.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really good point. (I should have done the all-in math.)

StellarWind is right (no surprise there). Your turn decision has more significance than I indicated in my previous post.