Pocket Pair Statistics and Discussion

[MrX]

Woodguy, I think your play on this hand is fine and I have no criticism of the play and it is one I use sometimes in mulit's and SNG's, however....

Early in a tourney I probably limp with TT and lower almost all the time (JJ I rse if 1st in and call small rasies for set value and POSSIBLE overpair value).

The reason I limp is I am playing them for set value because of all the bufoons that are in the first two levels that cannot laydown their A6s on a AT3 flop when I have pocket TT's. I have invested very little with a lot to gain, and the hand is relatively easy to play which is nice early when I have no read on my opponents.

I am looking for a hand to win a LARGE pot with early in the tourney, although your play was legit and solid, it stinks when the BB check raises you on the flop and you lost 425 chips in an effort to win 175.

MrX

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise hard with 10-10 on the first hand of a tourney??


[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't the first hand, but it was close.

I was lucky it was a scary flop, but raising to limit the number of players that see the flop decreases the chances that the flop hit anyone, and also helps you put your opponents on a hand.

If my bet gets called here, I try to check it down unless I improve.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t5)
CO (t1655)
Button (t730)
SB (t925)
BB (t760)
UTG (t833)
Hero (t800)
UTG+2 (t692)
MP1 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t55</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t55, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t40.

Flop: (t175) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t125</font>, MP1 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: t300

By the way Zaxx, timid play like you see by my opponents here is one of the reasons I like to play Party. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Regards,
Woodguy

[HoldingFolding]

Some great posts here.

[ QUOTE ]
If an over card hits the flop at a low buy-in (5/10) you know exactly where you are at... behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very true, in the first couple of levels a 3 or 4BB bet will not get rid of two pictures or Ax. I usually raise 2BB to get out the real chaff, but will fold if my post flop stab is reraised with overcards showing.

Later on of course, Woodguy's take is absolutely spot on and JJ becomes much easier to play as your 3BB raise will be respected.

[zaxx19]

2 limpers ....nice stack already....on the button...with a mid pair...what exactly is your point?? Of course you raise here, what else are you gonna do unless you really feel like you need to play a baby or suited connector?? Remember in my first post I mentioned POSITION as a major factor in which action to take with these mid pairs...thanks for illustrating how it should be played on the button with only a few limpers. A better ?? is if the BB makes it 315 to go what are you gonna do then?? I auto muck. Id like to hear other answers given there would be no read on the raiser. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I limp is I am playing them for set value because of all the bufoons that are in the first two levels that cannot laydown their A6s on a AT3 flop when I have pocket TT's. I have invested very little with a lot to gain, and the hand is relatively easy to play which is nice early when I have no read on my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point.

I do not always raise my PP's, but I think it's a crime to never raise them.

Flopping a set can help you double through, but because flopping a set is about 1 in 8 (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) you are missing 7 decent opportunities to win a reasonable pot because you haven't represented a good hand to start with and there are now few ways for you to win that pot (I not saying raise every time, just not to limp every time)

I find I build my stack more through a series of reasonable pots more often than a few double ups.. (I think its because I play too fast, but that's another post)

[ QUOTE ]
although your play was legit and solid, it stinks when the BB check raises you on the flop and you lost 425 chips in an effort to win 175.


[/ QUOTE ]

I hate when that happens too so I don't throw chips at every pot (most, not all [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img])

You can also flop a set after you raise, then because the pot is larger and your opponents are more tied to it, you have a better chance of stacking them.

In this hand I got really lucky that my opponent has an overpair, but if my opponent raises his JJ I might fold PF.

If I limp my T's and he raises PF, I probably muck (maybe)

If we all limp the pot is smaller and he may get away from my checkraise or someone who limps 2 diamonds,(but folds them if I raise) may feel that they have the implied odds to run me down on the turn.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter

MP2 (t1482)
MP3 (t1135)
CO (t700)
Button (t520)
SB (t720)
BB (t865)
UTG (t790)
UTG+1 (t1018)
Hero (t770)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t65</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t65, CO folds, Button calls t65, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t220) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t1070 (All-In)</font>, Button folds, Hero calls t705 (All-In).

Turn: (t1995) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1995) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1995

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ts Th (three of a kind, tens).
MP3 has Js Jd (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t1630. MP3 wins t365. </font>

Looking back on this hand I really think it was the open raise that kept me from being driven out by the JJ PF

Generally my default play PF is to raise as this gives you more ways to win the pot other than just hitting the flop.

I still limp my small PP's, but I don't like to open limp with anything, if I am going to open a pot, it will be for a raise.

i'm not saying this is 100% correct but playing this way works for me.

Regards,
Woodguy

[woodguy]

That's why I responded to your post with a TT hand in early position.

Regards,
Woodguy

[MrX]

good thread..I have to admit my favorite way to play a pocket pair early up to TT is when I am calling a small preflop raise. I play few hands early so the 30-40 chips extra is no big deal, but it seems to guarantee more action post flop of course.

The key with limping with the pairs is when you do hit your set, extracting the most out of it you can. for me this often means betting the flop if I am in early position especially if there is an A or a K on the flop and I feel that the A or K hit someone behind me. It just seems that there is often a raise coming behind me from the player who thinks their A is good. In my early days I checked all sets on the flop and realized in the games I play in I was missing some value.

MrX

[etgryphon]

Hey All,

I'll throw out another discussion... Let's say you are in a late position, lets go with a CO, it is folded to you and you hold 88. Now from the charts it looks like there are only 3 opponents left to act which means the possiblity of an OPP is down to 9.3% so now it becomes correct to play for paired value rather than just set value. If there had been 2-3 limpers or a reraise in early position then it becomes against 5-6 opponents which makes the OPP probablity to fall outside the 10%-15% range that seem to be the threshold.

Comments?

-Gryph

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey All,

I'll throw out another discussion... Let's say you are in a late position, lets go with a CO, it is folded to you and you hold 88. Now from the charts it looks like there are only 3 opponents left to act which means the possiblity of an OPP is down to 9.3% so now it becomes correct to play for paired value rather than just set value. If there had been 2-3 limpers or a reraise in early position then it becomes against 5-6 opponents which makes the OPP probablity to fall outside the 10%-15% range that seem to be the threshold.

Comments?

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

A few weeks ago I suggested splitting the forum into two - one for higher and the other for lower buy-in tournies. There has been little mention of the buy-in in this discussion and it (and the presumed increase in the quality of the players) is essential. I don't play $10 tournies and try to avoid giving advice when people post hands from them.

In this situation, I would certainly limp with 88 after 2 or 3 limpers. But you cannot use the charts for 6 players to assume an overpair. The reason is because (at least in the tournies I play) while the first player may limp with AA or KK, the second and/or third player will not because they do not want to be in a multi-way pot with those hands. So you have to take out the big pair possibilities from the MP and LP raisers.

[kalooki45]

where are those charts? sure would make life easier!
thanks!¬ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]