Getting your overpair raised on the flop

[iceman5]

Hypothetical scenario here
Playing any stakes..let say $2/$4NL
You raise to $16 with KK and get a caller. Both have full stacks
Flop comes Q85. You bet pot and get raised (min raise or one bet more than min).
I know there are any number of factors involved and there there are no easy answers but what do you think is normally your best play?
He most likely has AQ or a set. I see alot of people post hands where they call the raise and then fold the turn when a big bet comes flying at them. The opponent is going to bet the turn fairly big with a set OR AQ.
Is it better to reraise and fold to an all in? What if he just calls the reraise?
Maybe its just that Ive lost my stack or most of it to a higher number of sets lately, but it seems to me that once you get raised you are almost always behind.

I get nervous when I see AA or KK now.

I know, this post isnt of much use, so flame away. Im just thinking out loud.

[NPoling]

No, this is a very good post.

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Is it better to reraise and fold to an all in?

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If hes going all-in after you've raised, you can be pretty sure he is very very strong. Very few players would pull that bluff unless they had a very strong read on your vulnerable K-K, A-A etc.

On the flop I'd say raising is your best option. A fold is a bit too passive unless you have some sort of read/tell that you're smoked, and you don't really learn anything else about his hand by calling. Furthemore, he'll likely bet into you on the turn if you just call anyways, so its a free bet.

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What if he just calls the reraise?

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I'd say this makes your position a lot stronger. Depends on the size of your raise.

[Jimbolito]

[ QUOTE ]
Hypothetical scenario here
Playing any stakes..let say $2/$4NL
You raise to $16 with KK and get a caller. Both have full stacks
Flop comes Q85. You bet pot and get raised (min raise or one bet more than min).
I know there are any number of factors involved and there there are no easy answers but what do you think is normally your best play?
He most likely has AQ or a set. I see alot of people post hands where they call the raise and then fold the turn when a big bet comes flying at them. The opponent is going to bet the turn fairly big with a set OR AQ.
Is it better to reraise and fold to an all in? What if he just calls the reraise?
Maybe its just that Ive lost my stack or most of it to a higher number of sets lately, but it seems to me that once you get raised you are almost always behind.

I get nervous when I see AA or KK now.

I know, this post isnt of much use, so flame away. Im just thinking out loud.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also wonder about this, cuz lately my results has been very bad and I´m not sure if I´m just unlucky or my play has gotten worse. But one thing I´m sure of is that I loose alot whith cards like AA,KK,QQ,JJ when I flopped an overpair. To often I call a Raise and loose to twopair or a set.

Is hard to lay down these cards when the flop doesnt look to scary, especially when it´s a aggro bluffer that goes allin.

Like ona hand today:

1-2$NL UB. I R to 8$ with AA in EP, got 2 calls from LP and BB.

Flop>> Q-T-9 --2suit

I bet out 18$ and BB calls, 7 falls on turn and he bets out
10$ I raise to 20 he to 30$ I call. River is a second T, and he bets out 40 I call, he turns over QQ wich was a totally suprise.

This is just one exampel where I lose with overpairs. Is this weak play in NL? Should you fold this cards if someone gets aggressive and just wait for bigger hands like twopair,sets,straights,flushes??

[PokerFink]

I think the most important thing is how your opponent reads you. For example, if I'm raising from EP, and bet out on a low flop, it's almost always going to be a big overpair. So if I'm up against a smart player who raises me, I can probably figure them for a set and I'l muck it, because they know what I'm holding. But against a dumber player, I'm more than willing to push with KK vs a Q high board. Gotta have strong convictions in your reads on how smart other players are, and how they play YOU. My two cents.

Oh, if its real deep stacks, I'd say re-raise and muck to an all-in.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
think the most important thing is how your opponent reads you. For example, if I'm raising from EP, and bet out on a low flop, it's almost always going to be a big overpair. So if I'm up against a smart player who raises me, I can probably figure them for a set and I'l muck it, because they know what I'm holding. But against a dumber player, I'm more than willing to push with KK vs a Q high board. Gotta have strong convictions in your reads on how smart other players are, and how they play YOU. My two cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem is, if they are in fact smart players they will quickly catch on to the fact that you are more then willing to lay down your overpairs on raggdy boards when facing aggresion, and will start taking shots at you.

i think one way to solve this is to start making bigger raises with you pocket pairs, thereby eliminating the odds for someone to hit a set.

i made a comment about this idea in an earlier thread, and basically i was commenting on how alot of times you have reverse implied odds with your big pocket pairs when you raise small preflop.

you won't win any money from the smaller pairs unless they hit a set, however you stand to lose your stack when they do.

the way to combat this to raise more preflop, and try and induce a reraise.
of course for this to be successful you need to mix up what hands you are willing to make this play with or else people will pick up on it quickly.

[PokerFink]

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[ QUOTE ]
think the most important thing is how your opponent reads you. For example, if I'm raising from EP, and bet out on a low flop, it's almost always going to be a big overpair. So if I'm up against a smart player who raises me, I can probably figure them for a set and I'l muck it, because they know what I'm holding. But against a dumber player, I'm more than willing to push with KK vs a Q high board. Gotta have strong convictions in your reads on how smart other players are, and how they play YOU. My two cents.

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the problem is, if they are in fact smart players they will quickly catch on to the fact that you are more then willing to lay down your overpairs on raggdy boards when facing aggresion, and will start taking shots at you.

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I agree, except I think it's more likely that they will know you are raising/betting with the big pocket than they will know you will fold that same pocket. Unless they have seen you muck that big pocket (espcially faceup), the problem you bring up doesn't worry me much. Besides, getting bluffed out of a small pot here and there won't kill your stack.

Obviously, if it's someone you have played with a lot, then it gets tricky and turns into a crazy mental "I know that you know that I know that you know that I know" situation. Good point though.

[elnino12]

I've also lost quite a bit to sets (although not as much lately) with AA/KK/QQ, but I think the key is to realize that high paired hole cards are not invincible in the least, which is something many inexperienced players tend to believe (especially with KK or AA). Therefore, I think that large raises or limp-reraises are completely necessary with these hands in No-Limit. You should obviously mix up your play at times, but don't be angry if you raise hard in EP with one of these hands and everybody folds around until you pick up the blinds. At least you made a profit and didn't go broke to a set of ducks or 3/5 suited. Sadly enough, I'd rather have something like 88 in a heavily raised pot because I know that I'll either completely hit or miss on the flop. Anyway, that's just my two cents--hope it's not too worthless or boring.

[MiracleFlop]

I'd say this makes your position a lot stronger. Depends on the size of your raise.

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maybe... he has position on u, so if it was me, and i have a set, i might call the reraise, see the next card, and expect a bet from the raiser, at which point i can move all in, etc.

so the question then becomes, if you reraise, and he calls, then you tread carefully after that... let's assume a non str8, non flush board on the turn, or a flush board where u have the high card, you have to decide whether to make a value bet on the turn and check the river, or check/call on out