The Butcher

[Blake Lovely]

I think if you lead you will get raised and you can 3 bet, if its not 3 bet back to you. The table is clearly very aggressive. Leading gets the most bets in, and cuts the odds to all the people drawing. I dont see the table shutting down, you likely have a KQ or AK out there along with yours that will pump the pot.
1 bet in this pot and they wont put you on a monster, your checkraise would show more stregnth.

[Alexthegreat]

The table was aggressive, but I really don't like the idea of facing 3 players with 2 bets if I'm behind, or up against another AK...That would be the worst possible scenario in this situation....I would much rather checkraise and be 3-bet, (which is likely if the original raiser does hold AK) because the callers would be tied to the pot already...

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
The table is clearly very aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't seem clear to me at all. In fact, I might characterize a table where mutli-way pots go one bet on the flop and check around on the turn and river as "passive".

[Blake Lovely]

I agree, I was basing this on preflop action.

Especially mp1, I just believe that if you bet mp1 will raise.

The central argument is weather or not you want the others in the pot, or if you want them out.

We want to keep hands that we have dominated in, i.e. A-small pair, and also pocket pairs like QQ to stay.

we want hands like 9-10 to fold.

I still think that leading the flop is the best play, but its really close.

If you check raise you will trap the 2 outers for sure, but the 5 outers will also stay which is bad.

If you bet and get raised, you'll probly get a couple folds and a couple bad calls. QQ might call the 2 cold. 9-10 could possibly fold. You can 3 bet and trap fewer hands in for more bets. The origional raiser could have QQ and he would often raise your lead.
So you'll go the turn say 3 handed for 3 bets instead of 5 handed for 2 bets. You have fewer cards that beat you and 1 less sb.

Thats why I think leading is best. I like to give my opponents the opportunity to make a mistake, instead of trapping them in by giving them decent odds.

If you expect the table to shut down if you lead then check raise. If you expect mp1 to raise you if you lead then lead.

[Nightwish]

For once I agree with Mike L! I would check-raise this flop pretty much every time. The people advocating a flop bet are all assuming that MP1 will raise. He may not. On the other hand, you will be able to check-raise the flop here almost every time. The only times when you may not get the chance is when MP1 hits the flop hard, i.e. he has KK or TT, but those times really suck for you anyway. In fact, if MP1 missed, it may even get checked to LP who will bet and allow you to force the field to either put 2 SB in cold or fold.

Going for a turn check-raise is a bad idea precisely because of what happened. It's actually not too uncommon for players to check the turn here if they don't have a K or better.

But after you screwed up on the turn, the river is a mandatory value bet!

[Alexthegreat]

Yeah, I was flustered after the turn whiff, I know that I have to bet the river here.....

You should have seen my face after the hand...I'm sure that I was looking off into the distance with a pained look for waaaaaay too long

[roy_miami]

Go for a flop check raise no matter if the bet comes in early or late position, maybe the origional bettor 3-bets it (hopefully with KQ not AA) in which case you cap and lead the turn.

In loose games like this I think you'll find that you'll get as much, if not more, total money in the pot by playing hands fast on the flop as opposed to waiting to get tricky on the turn. Even with very strong hands such as the nut flush or straights or sets alot of times you'll be better off pounding on the flop, but top pairs over pairs and 2 pair hands you should most definately pound on the flop in these loose games with big pots. Most of the times I flop huge hands such as quads or boats I'll just come out betting on the flop unless I think there is a good reason to believe I can get in a trapping check-raise.

With fast playing out of position you'll never miss alot of bets due to check throughs. You will miss out on some big street raises, but often it will be made up for by getting 3 or 4 bets in on the flop. I don't know about your games, but in my games the button will often raise on the flop going for the free card play or just to see where he stands. An added side bonus of just betting out when you have a great hand is people that notice will get a little more careful about drawing to overcards or raising weaker hands against you on the turn or river.

This hand is a good example of why jamming on the flop is important. In these loose multi-way games, passive or aggressive, you should try to eliminate the trickyness as much as possible and just jam the pot at every opportunity with the best hand.

[garyc8]

I see your point.
My usual play in a multiway pot with top pair is to try to thin the field.
My rationale for leading out is:
A. The pre-flop raiser may raise (if only to slow me down), and thin it out.
B. If no raise on flop, people will be more inclined to drop when I bet the turn.

But I understand that when you CR, you turn what looked like a good call of one bet on the flop into a mistake for some players. Maybe this does give you enough equity. I'm not sure you've convinced me, but I'm second guessing myself. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't cap because of a glance at MP1, who was holding the cap bet in his hand....so I thought I'd keep my hand value hidden.....

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you really out-thought and over-read the situation here.
If it's playing so crazy then keeping your hand value hidden might not be noticed anyway.

I'm not much of a B&M player....but I think reads like the one in this situation can be over-rated and just lead to fancy-play syndrome.
Some reads are good (knowing which guy to isolate a raise with your AQo or something like that...and which guys to stay away from)...but here I think failing to cap PF with AK and then getting too fancy after the flop proved very costly.


Big pot....get super-duper aggro until someone else shows they actually like the flop also.


Someone mentioned trapping players in with their 2-5 outers.
The pot is big enough now where I would prefer everyone fold....but if they are drawing thin that's fine too.

But I'm still going to bet out....let them chase me.

[Alexthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you really out-thought and over-read the situation here.
If it's playing so crazy then keeping your hand value hidden might not be noticed anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree...He was going to cap...He was that kind of player, and I think he probably even muttered something about it as soon as it was 3-bet....

I think keeping my hand value hidden here isn't overthinking......If I cap and miss the flop, I probably still bet, and that could get ugly for me....