First 19k hands at Party 3/6, find the leaks!

[sthief09]

rough graph of VPIP vs. profit:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>



p /\
r / \
o / \
f / \
i / \
t -/----------\--- 0 profit
/ \
0 16 40

VP$IP

</pre><hr />

conclusion: of course you can play too tight. telling him not to worry about his VP$IP is TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE advice. he's too tight and could be winning a lot more if he added some hands.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
you're not limping nearly enough. pocket pairs and suited aces are your friends

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you found that limping with suited aces is profitable in most games and situations?

At 3-6 I have only been playing suited aces in LP with a few callers already. They seem to be trouble hands in EP.

[sthief09]

Dynasty once said something like, "if you're in a game where you can't limp with A2s or 22 UTG, then you should change tables"

I don't think this applies for all games, but it certainly does for a loose and semi-passive (preflop) game like Party 3/6

[JimRivett]

Could you explain how you came up with that graph and why you think it's accurate.

Am I to interpret from it that VPIP of 16% is optimal?

Here's some of my stats.
2/4 26,000 hands VPIP 14.02 2.67 bb/100
3/6 26,000 hands VPIP 13.76 1.77 bb/100

I have to be honest, I can't imagine how I could play more pre flop hands.

Bill asked for input on his game, he is already a winning player, my advice was not to worry about too much about his VPIP %, post some hands and digest the input he receives.

Relax, have a diet coke, and don't forget I would like to see how you came up with that graph.

Jim

[dave44]

Roughly, the graph says 16% of hands are profitable. If you play more than 16%, you are playing some -EV hands so your profit drops. If you play less than 16%, you are not playing some +EV hands so your profit drops. Of course, it does not look perfectly precise, but gives a general idea.

11% means he is folding hands pre-flop that would show a profit.

[sthief09]

the numbers are somewhat arbitrary. depending on postflop skill and style, you could have a varying optimal VPIP. 16 seems to be good for most people. some do well over 20. all I know is that 11 and chance is not optimal. my "graph" was just a sketch, but it does show that it's suboptimal to have a VP$IP so low. I don't know what your numbers are supposed to show me. you haven't played a lot of hands and you're beating, but not crushing those games.

I don't think it makes any sense to be satisfied as a marginal winner, as you are suggesting he do. you should always want to be better and win more. his and your VP$IP's are suboptimal. you two aren't making as much as you could by loosening up

[wuarhg]

I have the same problem, Although i'm working on my VP$IP and PFR and they are going up now since i've started looking into openraising more and limping or raising behind weak openlimpers. Something I never do at 3/6 is limp A9s-A2s and 88-22 UTG. I'm definately going to start to look into these hands, but I really don't like the situation if a TA-A raises behind me and I end up heads-up against him.

Any thoughts? I consider myself having pretty good table selection.

[MaxPower]

Jim,

I don't know if 16% is precisely the right number, but sthiefs graph is a decent approximation. I believe that most of the best players at these limits have a VP$IP of about 17-19%. The reason I believe this, besides the fact that I play this way, is that I believe that these players hardly ever make pre-flop errors and are still able to play that many hands.

I have a theory that that the difference between those in the 17-19% range and those who are much lower is mostly due to play in the blinds. I think some of these people play too tight in the blinds and that can have a large effect on your win rate.

I also think that win rates are very inaccurate based on the numbers of hands that most people have at any level in pokertracker. For instance, I have 46,156 hands at Party 3/6. My VP$IP is 18.96, my pre-flop raise % is 8.34 and my win rate is 3.33BB/100. However, even with 46,000 hands there is a large confidence interval around my win rate and it could be significantly lower in reality.

I would like to see CostaRicaBill's VP$IP by position to see how he plays the blinds.

One thing I noticed in CostaRicaBill's stats is that he does not attempt to steal very often. My percentage is close to 30%. Perhaps that is a little high, but I don't think so.

[lu_hawk]

[ QUOTE ]
I have the same problem, Although i'm working on my VP$IP and PFR and they are going up now since i've started looking into openraising more and limping or raising behind weak openlimpers. Something I never do at 3/6 is limp A9s-A2s and 88-22 UTG. I'm definately going to start to look into these hands, but I really don't like the situation if a TA-A raises behind me and I end up heads-up against him.

Any thoughts? I consider myself having pretty good table selection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping A2s UTG is going a little too far. But if you aren't playing the medium pocket pairs UTG then that is too tight. It's correct to play extremely tight UTG, I think players with low VPIP don't realize how much they can loosen up in late position and especially on the button.

[wuarhg]

[ QUOTE ]
Limping A2s UTG is going a little too far. But if you aren't playing the medium pocket pairs UTG then that is too tight. It's correct to play extremely tight UTG, I think players with low VPIP don't realize how much they can loosen up in late position and especially on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've started playing alot more hands in LMP, CO and on the Button. My VP$IP was also originally 11-11.5% in the beginning of my 3/6 career. Something I started doing alot more is raising alot on the button if someone open-limped to remove the blinds and putting pressure on the limper, I like it! Anyway, how low can you go in the blinds? Hands like 64s, J7s and speculative hands like that?