Too much gamble?

77rules · #1 12-10-2004, 12:15 PM

Villain is sLA-A, decent player.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($24.25)
Button ($23.25)
Hero ($66.5)
BB ($28.5)
UTG ($21.75)
UTG+1 (Villain) ($71.05)
MP1 ($11.65)
MP2 ($94.9)
MP3 ($9.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 (Villain) calls $0.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $1.25, 1 fold, UTG+1 (Villain) raises to $3, MP3 calls $2.50, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($9.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $10, MP3 folds, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($29.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero calls $53.50 (All-In), Villain calls $53.50.

River: ($136.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $136.50

I figured Villain for either AA or KK, and I had seen him lay down some hands, so I thought there was a chance he might fold. On the other hand, I figured I had at least 12 outs and maybe even 15 counting the Aces, so even if he did call, I really wouldn't mind.

OK, hack me to pieces ...

Wayfare · #2 12-10-2004, 12:56 PM

Why did you raise preflop?

Why did you call a large flop bet with only a draw on a paired board?

Why did you overbet the turn now that your opponent has shown obvious strength and you probably only have a 20% chance (if even that) to improve to the best hand? You aren't going to find many players making spectacular laydowns at this level.

I think this hand was played about as poorly as you can play it on all streets. Limp -- your raise accomplishes nothing here, especially out of position.

josie_wales · #3 12-10-2004, 01:32 PM

Thanks Wayfare,

That is basically what I was going to say, but didnt even know where to begin.

Everything Wayfare said.

And know that when we say that this was played abysmally, that it is NOT to poke fun, chastise etc.

It is just because it was played abysmally.

jw

BK_ · #4 12-10-2004, 01:35 PM

agree with everything wayfare said except that i think calling the flop bet is fine given that you got that far. you know the guy has aa or kk and likely isnt disciplined enough to fold on later streets if you hit, so your implied odds are relatively large, and you have little fear of losing if you hit. check call is also clearly superior to betting because you will get raised a huge portion of the time.

yea, and preflop and the turn suck for the reasons he mentioned.

Tilt · #5 12-10-2004, 01:45 PM

Im going to keep hacking you...

What is especially horrible about the turn play is that there is almost no way you dont get called. I mean, what could you possibly be representing here?

Your preflop raise suggests that you have no 7. An opponent with an OP isnt going to worry that you made a set of 8's - its just so unlikely and so hard to lay down to that you can represent it and expect a fold. And 55 doesnt flat call the flop - it would be raise or fold (probably fold).

I suppose you are representing AA/KK/QQ/JJ then? But thats what he probably has, and so either he calls hoping he has the better pair or gleefully calls with his AA. Hes too aggressive based on your read to even lay down TT, and with 99 he has a gutshot to pray for.

A good opponent will interpret your preflop raise and flop call as AXd and sniff out the desperation in your push. If you bluff, to have fold equity you need some consistency with what you are trying to represent IMO.

Rococo · #6 12-10-2004, 02:50 PM

This is a classic case of feeling like you are entitled to a pot just because you put money in preflop. And the sin is all the greater because putting the money in preflop in that position was a horrendous idea.

77rules · #7 12-10-2004, 04:33 PM

You're right in that I probably shouldn't even have been in that pot to begin with. But it was a fairly passive table, I thought I'd have a little fun. When the reraise came, and I found myself with a four flush on the flop, I thought I could double up if I hit my draw. So the flop call is about implied odds. When the str8 draw came after the turn, I thought "what the hell".

Not saying it's the way it should be played, just telling you my thoughts about it.

As for what I represent with a pre flop raise ... at this level and with these players, it's hard to put people on a hand just because they raise pre flop. A reraise means AK or better - usually. But I've seen people re raise with 77 and raise with any suited ace.

He took a long time in calling me, and showed me a pair of kings.