A common Ax situation in the BB

Mr. Graff · #1 12-10-2004, 11:16 AM

This is a common situation which I often have problems with.

Reads: At the time I did not have a particular read on UTG as he was pretty new to the table. He didn't seem an aggressive type though so far, I assumed loose passive. MP is loose paassive. But very little data on both.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, CO folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB
I'm becoming convinced I took the worst line possible, that this is either a check/fold or a bet situation. The size of the pot made the first option seem weak considering there was no PFR. But if I decide to bet it to the river I'm concerned that I'm paying a better hand and less likely to get paid off by a worse one. What do you think and why?

TJD · #2 12-10-2004, 11:33 AM

Bet the flop, you might get some idea where you are and you avoid giving a free card to someone who is behind.

There is no reason to assume someone has an ace.

If there was a PFR and it was HU, then I would check/call flop; check/call turn; bet the river.

T

bds · #3 12-10-2004, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, you might get some idea where you are and you avoid giving a free card to someone who is behind.

There is no reason to assume someone has an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop and are just called, do you keep on betting each street? I've done this and am often behind to a better A.

Is an option check-raising the flop? If 3 bet, can you then fold?

If you do check-raise the flop, and you are not 3 bet, then do you continue to bet out each street?

I have a great deal of trouble with these kinds of hands as well, as you can tell by the type of questions I'm asking.

Guy McSucker · #4 12-10-2004, 12:30 PM

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If there was a PFR and it was HU, then I would check/call flop; check/call turn; bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you take that line, how do you respond to a river raise?

If you don't think you can reliably fold, because the player is untrustworthy or unknown, is it better to check-call again?

Guy.

turnipmonster · #5 12-10-2004, 12:52 PM

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If you don't think you can reliably fold

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really? I like that line (check call then bet river) but would frequently fold to a river raise unless the guy is clearly insane. I don't think river bluff raises are all that common, at least in 5/10, and the pot is not big.

what does everyone think about checkraising the flop? I checkraise quite a bit in the 5/10, because it's in the terms and conditions that there are no flops checked around allowed in 5/10 unless everyone just flopped the nut straight.I c/r a stronger ace every time, but check/call top pair no kicker a lot from the blinds.

--turnipmonster

TJD · #6 12-10-2004, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop and are just called, do you keep on betting each street?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general; yes

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I've done this and am often behind to a better A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this will happen but in general I would assume that the chances are < 67% (odds on flop) and < 50% (odds on turn, if one folds). If these odds are beaten then betting is long term +EV and on "random" cards which I know they do not have, they will have an Ace about 25% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Is an option check-raising the flop? If 3 bet, can you then fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

First part. Who gives you the guarantee of the bet for you to raise? Why would I WANT to check raise? What purpose does it serve? What do you do if it goes bet, bet. Do you NOW CR? I have a possibly mediocre hand, I do not want to inflate the pot and encourage people to go to war. I just bet and say "hey I've got something, give me the pot" and hopefully that happens.

Second part, folding would be player dependent; against many at 10/20 I would cap and bet turn.

T

TJD · #7 12-10-2004, 01:30 PM

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When you take that line, how do you respond to a river raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have decided to play this line it is because I am NOT playing a guy who will bluff raise the river.

The bluffer, I play according to his level of insanity. Anything from capping the flop to check/calling all the way.

I may be wrong of course; it has been known [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

T

Mr. Graff · #8 12-10-2004, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop and are just called, do you keep on betting each street?

[/ QUOTE ]

In general; yes

[ QUOTE ]
I've done this and am often behind to a better A.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this will happen but in general I would assume that the chances are < 67% (odds on flop) and < 50% (odds on turn, if one folds). If these odds are beaten then betting is long term +EV and on "random" cards which I know they do not have, they will have an Ace about 25% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
The chances you are up against a better ace (approaching close to 40% with four opponents), a two pair or a set is one thing to consider, another is the likelyhood you will be paid off if they have worse hands to the likelyhood that you are simply paying someone off (including the chances that someone draws out on you).

When taking this into consideration is bet the flop (ensuring no steal), check/fold on the turn totally out of the question?

Of course I may just suffer from taking a beating on a hand where my aggression with second pair got punished by a calling station giving me no signs I was beat. This happened at a different table shortly before:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP calls.

River: (5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Standard turn bet? Is check/fold an option? Opponent is loose passive.