Being a great online poker player

[MicroBob]

To the argument that any 'reasonably intelligent' person can do it.
I actually disagree.

I think the biggest obstacle is ego.
To actually 'learn' to become a good player one has to first admit that they currently are NOT a good player.

Many don't know this or let themselves believe it.

There have been many posters on here (mostly newbie's...and a few veterans) who refuse to believe their unlucky hand was actually mis-played no matter how many people show them it was.
Those who get defensive and INSIST they are smarter than everyone here (and it happens...a LOT) will get crushed.


I know a couple people who I could teach to become fairly decent players...because they are decent at math and they understand that I'm a good player and that my advice should be listened to.


There's another guy I know who already knows how to play. He plays party and a couple other places I guess. I try to avoid him actually.
Anyway, he insists that he is a good player.
"Yesterday, I won a couple-hundred playing 2/4 and I took that money and won a couple hundred more at 5/10....but then I lost it all at 15/30 because I got REALLY unlucky. But I KNOW I'm a really good player. Do you play those tournaments?? I'm really good at those."

Here's a guy who already knows how to play and the basics of the game (how to read the board, what the big-blind is, etc). He's also a 'reasonably' intelligent individual (fairly well-read from what I gather) but I suspect there is virtually NO CHANCE he could ever become a decent player because he is so self-centered in his ideas.

He would prefer to debate me about why playing an offsuit Ace from any position is 'fun' and 'the right way to play' then listen to any counter-arguments.


That's what seperates me and other semi-decent winning players from the losers.
We're willing to listen.


The comparison to professional sports isn't really valid I think.
If professional basketball (or any other sport) was just 10 random drunks showing up and playing (some of whom don't know how to play or aren't sure how much each basket is worth, etc) then I could be considered 'top-notch' even though I'm just 5'6" and can pretty much only shoot 3's.


If succeeding at poker meant that I had to play the best of the best every night (like major-league sports) then I would get clobbered because I really don't think I'm going to be winning much with Howard Lederer, Phil Ivey, Chip Reese and Doyle Brunson sitting at my table.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
If professional basketball (or any other sport) was just 10 random drunks showing up and playing (some of whom don't know how to play or aren't sure how much each basket is worth, etc) then I could be considered 'top-notch' even though I'm just 5'6" and can pretty much only shoot 3's.

[/ QUOTE ]

But do they have to be drunks?

Seriously though, good post. The willingness to learn is the thing that most good poker players have. I wouldn't say it's necessarily an ego thing. I don't ever recall thinking that I'm a losing player. I know now that I was, but I never thought so at the time. I'd actually go so far as to say my opinion of my poker skills is less right now than it's ever been in the past. Despite all this, I've continued to read these boards, go over my hands, and try to get better.

Justin A

[lu_hawk]

It depends on how great you mean by great. A pro basketball player is probably in the top 0.01% of the population. So by that metric there are few people who would be able to be in the top 0.01% of the population in terms of poker skill. But you don't need to be in the top 0.01% to win at online poker.

[fnord_too]

No. It takes both mental and emotional capacity that not everyone has.

[JimRivett]

You're going to have to define "great".

My guess that some of these guys who claim to be internet pros actually are winning players, I'm not sure what the win rate is, however it wouldn't surprise me if they are putting in an enormous amount of hours to attain their profit.

I also feel internet poker helps the "math only" guys, who would probably have a harder time in live play.

Jim

[ChicagoTroy]

Go to the DMV and ask yourself what percentage of folks could play winning $3-6 poker. Hint: It's not 100.

[adamstewart]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned yet:

"The desire and drive to be great."

I'm sure that most 2+2ers, and 'great' poker players in general, have an inherent drive to compete.

Not everyone has that. Not everyone cares about it.

Adam

[stillbr]

My thoughts:

I defiantly believe any reasonably intelligent person has the ability to become a very good poker player. But I think the key is the willing to learn/ listen aspect. Can I end up making 100k plus / year if I really committed myself to learning poker, listening to advice, studying hands? I believe so. It may take 50,000 hands at .5/1, followed by 50,000 hands at 1 / 2, 50K at 2/4, 50K at 3/6. maybe 500,000 Hands at 5/10. Hours upon hours of studying these forums, books, individual hands. After all this I imagine I could make 2BB/100 playing 10/20. Now lets say I’m multi tabling and put in about 200 hands an hour, then schedule a 40hr work week. I’m now making about $3600 a week, which is aprox. 160K a year. Do I believe this is attainable? Probably so. Can anybody with reasonable intelligence do this? I believe so. Does the average person have the drive and self discipline? No way, but this doesn’t mean they couldn’t.

[Vollycat]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though, good post. The willingness to learn is the thing that most good poker players have. I wouldn't say it's necessarily an ego thing. I don't ever recall thinking that I'm a losing player. I know now that I was, but I never thought so at the time. I'd actually go so far as to say my opinion of my poker skills is less right now than it's ever been in the past. Despite all this, I've continued to read these boards, go over my hands, and try to get better.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you Justin. I am a health professional, and some of the best advice I ever received was along the lines of your statement.."Humility goes a long ways" If you are able to be humble-especially in the face of stupidity--you can become better at your proffession. We have to learn from the bad players (to keep them on our buddy list) and then be able to accept comments/advice that makes us better.
Wow, does this belong in the psychology forum...

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
But do they have to be drunks?


[/ QUOTE ]


Well...no. But it would be more fun.


The way that many fish play poker would roughly be the basketball equivilent of throwing every in-bounds pass the length of the floor and/or receiving the ball and immediately shooting it at the basket from 35-feet or so.
Perhaps occasionally having to be reminded which basket they should be shooting at (this is kind of the same as the drunk at the 10/20 last night who had to ask every hand and every round "how much is it?" dealer: "it's $10 to call sir").

Defensively, they might all be running around wildly chasing after the ball (all 5 players chasing the ball....not man-to-man or an appropriate zone-D)....or maybe all of them will congregate under the basket and just wait there.

Two teams might even be at mid-court just passing the ball back and forth to each other not realizing that they are doing something wrong thinking somehow that it's good strategy.
This might be kind of the same in poker as a few idiot-maniacs who cap every street on every hand and just pass their chips back and forth to each other.