"Middle Limit Holdem" Advice -- Do you agree?

[gaming_mouse]

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Keep in mind he is addressing a different game than the typical loose, small stakes game. In the introduction, Ciaffone says that the book assumes you are up against “decent players who have the bankroll and experience to be playing in middle limit holdem games.”

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Yeah, I know -- but I wanted to know 1) if the reasoning applied to small stakes games as well and 2) if others thought the reasoning was sound for middle limit games (lots of posters here play 15/30).

Anyway, it certainly wasn't meant as any kind of dig against Ciaffone -- I like his book too -- I was just trying to understand this point better.

gm

[BSXX]

That's cool. I didn't mean to come on too strong.

Here's my attempt to answer your questions:

Question #1: In a small stakes game this is a tougher question. 2 overcards against a very likely smaller pair is one of those ongoing debates. With 3 opponents in the hand, as in this example, I would still fold though.

Question #2: I used to play a $10/$20 B&M game, and I would definitely fold in this situation. As I mentioned in my original response, the callers concern me more than the original bettor. I don't play the 15/30 online games so I can't address that.

[pfkaok]

I'm going to go against the others here, and say that I agree with what Ciaffone is saying... he says "the deciding factor", meaning that otherwise it would be a close call. The factors that others stated, reverse domination, and the precsence of 2 callers would make it a close call. Then when you add the additional factor that you might give somebody a straight it pushes the odds that much more. If these are reasonably sound players, then what could you possibly put the bettor and 2 callers on that would give you good odds to call? It would have be almost perfect, like A10, J10, J10, then you'd have to hit the king, or maybe the bettor has the 9, and the other 2 guys have 10's... but in any way it would be almost impossible that both of your outs are good, and Very likely that neither of them are. Normally you'd give your K more of a chance to be a clean out, as its more likely you're against A10, or A9, than K10, or K9. However, in this example, there's no flush draw, so with 2 callers, the only reasonable draw for them to have is JQ. So having your K complete the OESD is actually an important factor with a bet and 2 callers, since without it you might be able to have odds to take a card off in this raised pot, as your K out would be much cleaner.

If these were bad players however, who could have almost anything to start with, you have a much better chance to have 2 callers with just middle pair, gutshots, or even an overcard. So you might hit your K, and get some guy with K8 to pay you off.

[Trix]

I fold too, there are a crapload of hands that will have you at 3 or less outs and peole will have tons of redraws on a board like this should you hit a K or A that is good.
I dont think 11:1 is good enough here.
14:1 would be close imo.