50xBB vs 100xBB. Can you get away from a set?

MrFroggyX · #1 12-01-2004, 05:06 PM

Hey gang,

I have recently switched from the Party network to the Prima network. And I like it! But I have a problem to adapt to the bigger stacks.. Nothing serious.. Mostly to bet right in each street so you can pot commit your opponents when you have a good hand an so on. But it's the first time in a few months I really starting to enjoy poker!! Very fun to let the brain start working after have played mostly on autopilot on party poker.

But in todays session I ran into set over set two times. On party I would have shrugged it off because I would never fold a set on party (only in extreme situations). The 50xBB stacks really protect you in that way. But when I play with 100xBB or more stacks.. Should I start worry about set over set? Or at lest think about the possibility that my opponent might have a bigger set?

I will post one off the hands. I think I really misplayed it! Especially my river play. There are a big possibility that he have QQ/JJ. But I didn't even think about it.

Prima 1/2 NL.
I'm UTG($285) with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I call. One limper in MP. And Villain(covers me) in the CO who raise to $8 total. I and MP call.

Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](Pot $27)
Nice!.. Perfect flop! I check. MP bets $2. CO raise to $24. I call and MP folds.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](Pot $79)
I check. CO bets $50. I min raise $50 to $100 total. CO calls.

River: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img](Pot $279)
Great! I got a full house.. Don't have to worry about the straight. I go all-in with my $153 that I have left to get the maximum value from the AA or KK I put CO on.
But he shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to take the pot. I did never even think about JJ and QQ.. I think I atleast should consider the possibility that he might have JJ/OO.

But to the original question.. Can you get away from a set or at lest think about the possibly that you are beat when you are playing with deeper stacks. Because in this hand I couldn't stop thinking how I should get my chips into the middle. The way I play on Party.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BobboFitos · #2 12-02-2004, 04:05 AM

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Very fun to let the brain start working after have played mostly on autopilot on party poker.

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Yah, I switched from Stars to Party and I sorta miss it. Mostly the software though... 100x to 50x has been an adjustment, but oftentimes in my session I build to 2x buyins so it becomes similar to what I'm used to. So maybe think about hands when you first buy in as though you've been playing for a while and have built a stack?

As for the hand...

I would lead at the pot. You might be able to trap MP if he calls and CO subsequently raises.
If Villain indeed has a big hand and raises you can smoothcall and get it all in on the turn. Check/calling is a little messy, because he will check behind with a bunch of hands on the turn. You dont want to miss a street of betting.

On the turn I hate the min raise. Either lead at the pot (A stop and go might be the good move here, as he's calling with a bunch of hands, so you're protecting your hand and extracting a lot of value)

If I checked I would raise more than 50...

On the river the 3 is irrelevant. He didn't have KT anyways, so the fact you boated doesn't change your inherent hand value. (He either was crushing you with JJ or QQ on the turn and you were crushing him if he had AA or KK or anything other than that)

You asked if you could get away from a set... And barring a monster read / incredibly scary board, I don't. My policy is to go broke with KK pf and go broke with an under set. If I played deeper this would all change - as for your hand - at what point could you ever think about releasing it?

Given your line, he bet 50 into a 79 pot on the turn. Would you consider folding there? That can NOT be profitable.

Just because this hand happened to be set over set, don't let that bother you. I go broke, too. But I'd prolly go broke in a different way. (Lead at the flop, he raises with QQ and then you can get it in on the flop or turn)

Hope this helped.

Tilt · #3 12-02-2004, 11:37 AM

I havent played such deep stacks but here are my thoughts anyway...

Why not raise that flop in a big way? Given the preflop action it seems quite likely that he has a decent PP, which gives him outs if he is behind. Id say put him to the test earlier. If he pushes and you know alot about the the player you *might* lay it down (very unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility).

It seems to me that when the stacks get deep like this you should try and take a pot like this earlier since players are less likely to get all their chips in the middle without premium hands. Trapping, therefore, has less value - unless you are talking about pp turned quads or a straight flush where premium hands can still be beat. Since you dont have a draw to the pure nuts yourself, an aggressive flop play would be in order IMO.

AncientPC · #4 12-02-2004, 02:14 PM

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I havent played such deep stacks but here are my thoughts anyway...

Why not raise that flop in a big way? Given the preflop action it seems quite likely that he has a decent PP, which gives him outs if he is behind. Id say put him to the test earlier. If he pushes and you know alot about the the player you *might* lay it down (very unlikely but not out of the realm of possibility).

It seems to me that when the stacks get deep like this you should try and take a pot like this earlier since players are less likely to get all their chips in the middle without premium hands. Trapping, therefore, has less value - unless you are talking about pp turned quads or a straight flush where premium hands can still be beat. Since you dont have a draw to the pure nuts yourself, an aggressive flop play would be in order IMO.

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You're saying this because you already know what's going to happen, but Hero was UTG.

However, I am still in favor of playing my sets strong partially because I play my bluffs / monster hands all strong. Also, no you should not have worried about set over set. It's really too rare to worry about.

pyroponic · #5 12-02-2004, 02:44 PM

I'd probably raise to at least $150 on the turn, if he does in fact have KK he'd probably call since he'd may think he has a good hand with outs to improve. If he folds, the pot is decently sized plus he'll have no read on you.

Cannes · #6 12-02-2004, 04:09 PM

I don't think the river 3 is irrelevant at all. It improves heros hand in many ways. He is much more likely to get paid off by AA, KK now that a hand like J9 or QJ has been counterfitted...

beta1607 · #7 12-02-2004, 04:18 PM

I really dont see how you get away from this hand without much deeper stacks and an impecable read of the villian. Unfortunatly he hit his two outter on the turn but I think you played it fine. Someone recently posted about the odds of set over set occuring and it is so small that you really cant worry about it too much.

MrFroggyX · #8 12-02-2004, 05:16 PM

Thx for the comments.. And I think I got the answer to my question.
The general consensus seems to be that you should not worry about set over set on the 100xBB sites. And that's is fine with me! Because that is the way I play on party.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But back to my hand above.. Well maybe it's better to bet out right away. It's usually that I do.. But this time I was going to play it a little different.. (always good to mix up your play) Because I really put my opponent on AA or KK and I wanted to make him pot committed so I could take his hole stack.. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] It didn't work out this time.. But maybe next time.. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

And I must say that this hand is no bad beat hand.. After all, the only time when I was ahead was on the flop.. And the money went in on the Turn and River.. He played me like I was a school boy.. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

BobboFitos · #9 12-02-2004, 07:08 PM

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I don't think the river 3 is irrelevant at all. It improves heros hand in many ways. He is much more likely to get paid off by AA, KK now that a hand like J9 or QJ has been counterfitted...

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You really think J9 or QJ is a possible holding for PFR? Froggy didn't mention anything about the PFR being wild.

You're right though about AA and KK. If Villain put Hero on something like QJ he will be paid off now.

MrFroggyX · #10 12-02-2004, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the river 3 is irrelevant at all. It improves heros hand in many ways. He is much more likely to get paid off by AA, KK now that a hand like J9 or QJ has been counterfitted...

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You really think J9 or QJ is a possible holding for PFR? Froggy didn't mention anything about the PFR being wild.

You're right though about AA and KK. If Villain put Hero on something like QJ he will be paid off now.

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I think he means that the CO could think that I had QJ or J9. Which means that he would be more inclined to call when he has two pair himself and counterfeits my two pairs.