100/200: A couple action hands that end with a muck

[GolfPokerGuy]

PokerStars 100/200, table is full-handed.

I haven't been playing this game for too long, so my reads are shaky.

1) MP1 is too loose preflop, coldcalling raises more than he should. Postflop I haven't seen him do anything unreasonable. MP3 hasn't played many hands, and seems normal.

Hero is MP2 w/ QQ.

UTG raises, MP1 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, folded around to MP1 who calls, Hero calls. 3 to the flop.

At this point I'd already decided to check to the capper and try to get a cheap showdown. This guy had been playing pretty tight, and I saw no reason to ram-and-jam when I am probably behind.

Flop 289, 2 hearts. I have no hearts.

MP1 checks, Hero checks (?), MP3 bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls (?), MP3 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero folds (?).

I really thought my chances of being/staying ahead were too miniscule to stick around even given the pot size.

2) MP2 is the same dude as MP3 in #1. BB is laggy and is on minor tilt after having dropped several K since joining the table.

Hero is MP1 w/ AKo.

Folded to Hero who raises. MP2 3-bets, folded to BB who calls. Hero caps, both call.

Flop JTx rainbow.

BB bets, Hero raises. (He could be betting with a whole host of hands here, some of which I beat, and almost all of which I'm drawing very live against. Plus I need to follow up on my preflop play.) MP2 3-bets, BB caps (!), Hero calls (??).

Turn T. BB bets, Hero folds (?).

Fold on the flop to all this unbridled aggression? Grit my teeth on the turn and call, hoping that MP2 doesn't raise it up?

Thanks.

[LarsVegas]

I am by no means a proven winner at $100/200, but your thinking and actions seems very well-founded to me.

Two very tough hands, but they won't all be as tough as these, and you managed to get out of both having lost "only" 3 and 4 big bets respectively.

Well played, IMHO.

lars

[NabO]

"I really thought my chances of being/staying ahead were too miniscule to stick around even given the pot size."


I like the way you played both hands :the second play is a very aggessif one but sometimes ,no doubt, we have to...I just wonder if the coldcall on the flop on the first hand isn't avoidable? Generally speaking i prefer when , preflop, the first raiser i three bet caps himself. When another player do it generally means more strenght cause you obviously need a really big holding to invest four bets at a time. When on the ohter side the raiser capped the three bets it can still be some kind of "intimadation play" i can myself think something like " it cost me just one more bet to take the lead of the hand".
I view the problem as the following: even if you have the best hand ( we're agree it's very unlikely) you will play against 2 players who have a lot of outs to beat you.AK [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and JJ or AK and flush draw but i can't think about their two hands with less then 10-12 outs together to beat you. Finally even if you're ahead on the flop , well, you're not in good shape ( you've got obviously +ev with this but it's just too unlikely).
Finally and more simply they will have a lot of outs to beat you if you're ahead but you will have almost no outs if you're not. I think that with this you could have avoid the cold call before the three bets on the flop.
Excuse my poor english [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[AlwaysWrong]

I like these hands a lot. Your actions seem quite odd on first inspection, but I can't find any problem with them.

QQ hand: initially you could just be against top pair and overs, but once it gets capped it looks like you're up against at least one of a flopped set or AA/KK (quite possibly both). Good fold.

AK hand: On the flop you're getting 10-1 to hit your gutshot - easy call. On the turn you could be drawing dead, and your odds aren't that great, so pretty clear fold.

[DeeJ]

Were any of the opponents "neverlose"?

[Chief911]

Because 100/200 players are fairly few on PS, and their reads are so dependant, how about posting some names. That would make it much easier for advice, especially from people who sit in that game.

I like your fold with the QQ hand. There's just too many ways you are beat and too much money you'd have to pay out to see a showdown.

With the AK hand, I'd really like to know who the two people are. There's been one person who has started hitting the 100/200 who is VERY loose preflop (Cold calling up to 3 bets with a HUGE range of hands including any Axo and even Kxo), and then plays very aggressively postflop regardless of his hand.

I think I might stick around, depending on WHO it is that is still in. I disagree that you are drawing dead on the turn, as I have a hard time thinking someone has JT here, and filled up. The problem is its a bit doubtful that an A or K would put you ahead. So 4 outs. Bleh. More I think about it, good fold. Then again, what do I know. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[GolfPokerGuy]

"Pianolegs" is the guy behind me in both hands.

In hand 1, the coldcalling MP1 is "parliament."

In hand 2, the BB is TBONE###### (a bunch of numbers).

I'll post some results soon.

[J.A.Sucker]

In hand 1, I think you set yourself up to be outplayed, and I don't like it. Here you have a guy who seems to be a maniac in a hand and you are sandwiched between him and a tough player, who has a good hand. This is also a draw-heavy board. You have an overpair. I don't mind the original check on the flop, but I'd tend to bet it myself to see what happens. Once it went down the way it did, then you have to checkraise it. Your idea of "cheap showdown" sounds like you're playing with scared money. The pot's huge - saving bets in big pots with excellent hands is a good recipe to go broke.

Since you just called the two bets back to you, how in the hell can you fold when it's capped back to you? At the very least, call two and see if you snap a set. You also may set off alarms in your opponents' heads and get them to slow down, allowing you to see the river for one bet (or free). Folding is atrocious, IMO.

Hand 2: This one is better, IMO. You may be sandwiched for lots of bets, and you don't have a pair, and may be drawing dead. This is a board that may have hit your opponents pretty hard. However, raising this turn is also an option that you may want to consider.

[Senor Choppy]

Hand 1: I'd 3-bet after MP1 check-raises and see what happens. With that board you could be dead or drawing to 1 out if an overpair and a flush or straight draw are out, but the pot is just too big at this point. I agree with JV, when the pot is big, the last thing you should be worrying about is saving bets and trying to meekly check-call to the river.

[GolfPokerGuy]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the player to my right in hand 1 is any sort of maniac. His noted loose preflop tendencies are, if anything, of a passive nature (hence the coldcalling), and as I said I had not yet noticed him make any ridiculous postflop plays.

In other words, he seemed decent enough to realize that given the preflop action (a 3-bet and a cap from a couple relatively tight players) he was up against at least one premium pair, and thus I don't see him ramming and jamming this flop with a weak made hand or a weak draw. A set, two pair, or a super draw are far more likely holdings.

I also had no evidence that the player behind me was tough, just that he was tight. When a tight player has 3 bets already to him in MP and caps it, and I have 2 Q's in my hand, I put him on AA, KK, or AKs, with AKo and JJ being slightly possible but much, much less likely. And AK becomes less likely for a tight player when he plays it this strongly on the flop.

I agree that either leading the flop or CR'ing may be better options. My plan was to call 2, and if MP3 just called behind me, to raise MP1 on a harmless enough turn card. If MP1 had only called MP3's 3-bet, I would have of course called the one more and then made a decision on the turn. When it goes 3-bet and 4-bet back to me the combination of the probable strenghts of their hands still leads me to think this is a fold. The pot isn't big enough for me to call and fold the turn if I don't hit my 1 in 23 shot, and it is terribly unlikely that I'll get to showdown for less than 2 bets.

My comment about trying to cheaply get a showdown was with regard to the player behind me, and his likely range of hands I gave above. I think check-calling the whole way on a crap board is fine if you peg your opponent on AA, KK, or AKs.

Thanks JA.