AJo from EP flops top pair

[Ajax410]

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I think you will find that if you play AJ off every time that you get it that it will be break-even or costing you money. In summary AJ off sucks. Especially in EP or MP.

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AJo is not a monster. However, it IS a good hand. If you are consistenly losing money with AJo, it is not because the hand is bad, it is because you're not playing it properly.

Alex

[busguy]

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AJo is not a monster. However, it IS a good hand. If you are consistenly losing money with AJo, it is not because the hand is bad, it is because you're not playing it properly.

Alex

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Hence why I am suggesting to the OP NOT to play this hand everytime and from this position. His 5 + posts suggesting that he is lost post flop should kind of give it away that he might not know how to play this hand.

I didn't say NO ONE should play this hand. I probably wouldn't suggest to the three einsteins above to NOT play this hand. I suggested that the OP not play this hand, and I would bet HIS stats on this hand (AJ off) would suggest that HE is breakeven or losing with it.

I love when people don't actually read the posts. Maybe for a change try NOT just scanning the things and then saying to yourself, " Well that's not proper play" and then slam someone trying to actually HELP a guy.

Telling the guy that he should keep playing hands like AJ off because a good player should know how to play it, isn't going to help this guy in the short term.

[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] busguy

[Ajax410]

I think that you're missing the point. The purpose of his making this post is to show that he has a general problem with AJo from EP. One way to eliminate this problem would be to fold AJo from EP. This would be wrong - he would be giving up a +EV opportunity everytime he folded it.

I was, for awhile, a loser with AQo. Should I have folded this in EP? The point is, if he's having trouble, it is not because of the hand, it is because he isn't playing it properly. If he isn't playing a very strong hand properly, he shouldn't fold it (as is the case with suited connectors/Axs), he should learn how to play it properly.

I think your advice is good for certain hands. If you aren't good with Kxs, I think folding K8s or K9s everytime you get it is not a bad plan. This is even true with a hand like A8s if you feel like you're spewing chips with it. But with AJo, a hand which is likely the best pre-flop, I can not agree with any statement which tells the original poster to fold it.

I did read the posts...I didn't just scan. And I think your advice, though applicable in certain situations, does NOT apply here. I wasn't being critical, I was just clarifying what my personal belief was. No need to get all snippy.

I appreciate that you were trying to help him - obviously we're all trying to help everybody - but if I feel your advice is lacking (and the same goes for you in my posts), I think it's my responsibility to correct what you stated.

Alex

[busguy]

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I think you are very, very wrong.

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Well thanks for taking the time to elaborate on "why" you think I may be wrong instead of just being an idiot.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] busguy

[busguy]

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One way to eliminate this problem would be to fold AJo from EP. This would be wrong - he would be giving up a +EV opportunity everytime he folded it.

[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. I didn't say he should fold it everytime from EP but I believe AJ off is very marginally +EV if at all, in EP.

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The point is, if he's having trouble, it is not because of the hand, it is because he isn't playing it properly

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Ah . . no, it is both. He knows he is a little lost post flop (how he plays it) but AJ off is also one of the hardest hands that there is to play "properly". One of the reasons for this is that it is such a hard hand to get away from when you catch a piece of the flop. If you only catch an A or a J, your not going to fold, but if no help comes on later streets you likely will find yourself at the river (having called bets) with problems (out kicked, 2 pair etc).

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If he isn't playing a very strong hand properly, he shouldn't fold it (as is the case with suited connectors/Axs), he should learn how to play it properly.

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1) I think your pushing it calling AJ off in EP a "very strong hand".
2) Yeh he should fold some of his marginal big hands without position, until he learns to play post flop a little better, if he doesn't want to completely destroy his bankroll, while learning.
3) Doesn't the hand kind of play itself - raise, bet, bet, bet etc. Not really hard to know how to play . . . just hard to get away from.

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I think your advice is good for certain hands. If you aren't good with Kxs, I think folding K8s or K9s everytime you get it is not a bad plan.

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Not a bad plan ??. Well thanks. Actually Kxs is garbage in my opinion and shouldn't be played anywhere except the blinds or the button.

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No need to get all snippy.

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my appologies, it wasn't actually your post that got my back up.



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I appreciate that you were trying to help him - obviously we're all trying to help everybody - but if I feel your advice is lacking (and the same goes for you in my posts), I think it's my responsibility to correct what you stated.

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Absolutely


[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] busguy

[Entity]

busguy,

The problem is not with AJo in EP. The problem is with learning how to play it, in EP or otherwise. The discussion of raising/folding/limping AJo in EP has happened many times, and each time, people have sided with the fact that in EP, it is profitable. Too profitable to fold. Most here prefer raising with it, but I think limping is fine too. Raising may have had a better effect on this hand overall.

If you are folding +EV hands because you don't know how to play them, you are losing quite a bit of EV overall, and this is a leak. Learn to work on postflop play.

Rob

[Ajax410]

First off - glad to keep discussions civil - I think this is a great argument to have - it is a problem for a lot of players.

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I didn't say he should fold it everytime from EP but I believe AJ off is very marginally +EV if at all, in EP.

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This is my first point of contest. If you check an EV Chart, you will see that AJo ranks higher than 77, KQo, and JTs. Seeing how these are hands that are, typically, played from all positions (KQo is typically raised from EP but called if there are a lot of limpers in LP), I think it is a mistake to make AJo an exception. I think a case can be made for calling instead of raising from EP, but I think that, for me, narrowing the field and forcing worse hands to call 2 cold is clearly a better move.

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He knows he is a little lost post flop (how he plays it) but AJ off is also one of the hardest hands that there is to play "properly". One of the reasons for this is that it is such a hard hand to get away from when you catch a piece of the flop. If you only catch an A or a J, your not going to fold, but if no help comes on later streets you likely will find yourself at the river (having called bets) with problems (out kicked, 2 pair etc).

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I agree that it isn't easy to play, but most hands aren't easy to play post-flop. Post flop is hard to play. There is no way to get around this. By not playing AJo, you're giving up a +EV move because you're scared of your post-flop play. The easy thing to do is fold AJo, but the harder, but more rewarding, thing to do, is to learn to play post-flop. You're not going to learn to play AJo effectively post-flop if you're folding it pre-flop. Also, being able to make big laydowns is a part of the game - but so is calling down - sometimes you have to call raises, and sometimes you have to play aggressively. Picking those spots are what separate good and average players.

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1) I think your pushing it calling AJ off in EP a "very strong hand".

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I can downgrade it to "strong hand," but I think then we're missing the point. It isn't a monster, but it's certainly not a hand we should ever fold in an unraised pot.

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2) Yeh he should fold some of his marginal big hands without position, until he learns to play post flop a little better, if he doesn't want to completely destroy his bankroll, while learning.

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That's what Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'em advocates. I think it's a weak/tight strategy. If he wants to improve, he needs to immerse himself in these situations, and the only way to do that is to stop playing scared.

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3) Doesn't the hand kind of play itself - raise, bet, bet, bet etc. Not really hard to know how to play . . . just hard to get away from.

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Isn't that true with most hands?

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Actually Kxs is garbage in my opinion and shouldn't be played anywhere except the blinds or the button.

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I tend to agree...unless there are a bunch of limpers in front of you...then it becomes +EV to play these hands...but this is unrelated.

Anyway - hope this clarified my point a little bit.

Alex