need help! playing a set against possible flush

[naegid]

Hi folks!

Party poker $25 6-handed, only 5 at the table.
Me ~ $55
Bad Dude (on my immediate left) ~ $24 (hes just sat down)

My image is pretty loose and agressive- i know this as the table have been discussing it, the bad dude doesnt.

I'm dealt 55 under the gun and raise to $2- my standard raise. Is this dumb? i like raising hands like this sometimes to disguise them but i dont know whether this is relevant/profitable at this level. Bad dude is the only caller (a little surprizing, my raises have seen 4+ way action on a number of occasions).

Flop ($4.75): 5c, 3h, Qc

Cracking! I lead out $3 - middle set against a 2 flush i normaly bet, i'd probably bet even if there wasnt a 2 flush to be honest. Good/Bad? More/Less? Bad dude calls.

Turn ($12.75): 6c

Dagnammit. At this point i dont have a clue how to play it. Bad dude could have called with a Queen, Medium Pocket Pair, set or ... 2 clubs. Following my 'if in doubt bet' mantra i bet $6. He min raises to $12.

This should be my clue i'm beat, right? Is betting out good initially?

From here on stupidity sets in and i raise him all in (another $9 or something), he calls and wins with Kc Jc.

Any comments, criticism or general advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

[thebroker]

All I'm going to address is the preflop raise. It is good to raise with smallish hands to mix it up. However the Party games aren't really the place for it due to the small stacks. Most sites allow you to buy in at 100x the BB. Party's max is 50x the BB. If your opponents had stacks equal or bigger than your 100-plus BBs then you could do this more often. Some will disagree with this post. I prefer playing in deeper stack games so I can get funky with hands as bad as 53. That's just my style.

[creedofhubris]

Don't push all-in when your opponent raises and tells you "I have a flush". Just call him and hope to make a boat on the river.

I don't like the preflop raise.

[naegid]

Yup, this seems spectacularly obvious in the cold light of day. I think i'm probably being offered the correct odds to do so.

Would people be happy folding to a bet on the river, assuming you dont get your full house? It's going to be a pretty big pot ~$35 and at pretty small bet ~$7.

Thanks for the comments on the preflop raise (especially thebroker's comments on stack vs blind sizes- 2 players at the table had me covered, oh and, i dig your style dude), i've been trying a few different things recently and raising more hands preflop has actually increased my winnings (very short term experiment!!) and has certainly made the game more uhh fun!

That said, i think the raise was wrong... under the gun probably isnt the place to try is, is it?

Would anyone care to comment on the turn bet? I know it was played badly after and the preflop raise was almost certainly wrong. This is why i'm learning at $25 capped buy in! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Thanks!!

[BigToga]

Raising with a small pair from UTG just limits the field - something you don't really want to do when you have a small pair. If you just call here and you get 2 or 3 people who get a piece of the flop, now this is a much more potentially profitable hand. But, as you said, you're trying to mix up your play and there's nothing wrong with raising with this hand while UTG once in a while.

Flop play was good - you let him mak a mistake and he fell for it.

Re-raising on the turn when he min-raised you was too much, IMO. When you pushed, he didn't have enough chips to walk away from the hand - he was pretty much forced to call you. If you'd made the same play at someone with $100 more behind, maybe the outcome's different but, w/ KJs, I doubt they'd lay it down.

Leading out on the turn is fine but betting 60% of the pot there might be a bit much for me (1/3?). 1/3 pot bet is deceptive and defensive in this situation. If he pushes, you can walk away. If he min-raises, then you're definitely getting correct odds to call. 1/3 pot bet here completely defines his hand (unless he flat calls) yet doesn't give away anything about your hand. It could be a bet designed to induce a raise, a bet with top pair, a bet with 2 pair, etc - he surely doesn't put you on a set of 5s!

[soko]

I am interested, if hero called the turn minraise and the river was a blank, hero checks and villian bets you all in for $9, you fold here after investing 2/3 your stack in the pot?

[Smoove]

[ QUOTE ]
I am interested, if hero called the turn minraise and the river was a blank, hero checks and villian bets you all in for $9, you fold here after investing 2/3 your stack in the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your math is off. Hero actually had $55 behind so it's more like 2+3+12=17 which is roughly a third of his stack and I think I could lay it down. Minraises are tough but if you know he's a bad player then I'd probably give him credit for the flush. Preflop advice in this thread is good...I'd actually lead out for a little more (pot sized..maybe overbet) on the flop because you know he's a bad player and if he's willing to call 3, he probably would be willing to call 5.

[sangdencre]

At the small stakes nl tables, you're going to see that rarely will you have someone who is trying to be deceptive. You also can't bluff them, they rate their hands by what level (flush, set, etc) it is, not how high (Ace, King, Two) it is. If four clubs came up and you went all-in, I highly doubt he would have folded, and rather called you without a second thought.

Since their pretty predictable, flush/straight drawers will usually call whatever you throw down as opposed to raising. This should have been a big red flag as soon as he raised you on the turn.

I don't like the turn bet, I might have possibly checked, or not bet so much. I definately wouldn't have called here. You're hoping for a full house or quads. You have 7 outs, possibly even less (i would have speculated he might have holded a queen).

Calling is definately not right here in a NL table. Not only are your pot odds against you, you also are going to be faced with another uncomfortable bet on the river when a blank shows up. throwing another 6 dollars away for a hand that you have a ~12-15% chance of hitting is just pure chasing.

Also I don't agree with "changing your plays up" at small stakes tables. These players you're going to be playing are horrible and are only interested in what they have. I can assure you these players at small stakes tables aren't observing your every move. They aren't noticing what hands you raise with and even if they are, they will rarely use it in their post-flop play. It's not profitable enough at low stakes games to do this, imo. Wait till you get to high-stakes with headsup; Then try and play fancy.

You definately wanted to just limp in pre-flop and build the pot. There are 8 over cards that can come and I doubt you will be playing them if they come up, your hand is being played to make a crazy straight/sets/quads/fullhouse. Get the most value you can everytime you play a speculative hand like this.

summary: don't try and get fancy at small stakes. They won't be paying enough attention to make it worth it.

[naegid]

First off, thanks for all the posts, every one has made me understand a little more about the hand and where i made mistakes.... everywhere!?

Unfortunately, I dont know that the opponent is a bad player, this was his 4th hand at the table. Against the 'average' party player would you still advocate overbetting the flop?

BigToga's line on the turn is interesting, i considered checking or making a smaller bet but decided against it. If i were my opponent, i'd view a $3 bet as weakness and be sorely tempted to raise representing the flush. I doubt i would against an unknown opponent... but i've made worse plays. Such as pushing on the turn here.

I'd be interested to hear other opinions on the amount of flop/turn bets. I'm starting to think of my play as:

Preflop: Wrong (should call)
Flop: Pretty Good
Turn: Pretty Good (I wouldnt feel comfortable betting less than $5)
After Turn Raise: Horrendous (should call, check fold river)

Thanks again!

[sangdencre]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know that the opponent is a bad player, this was his 4th hand at the table. Against the 'average' party player would you still advocate overbetting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I might have used the wrong term when I reffered to bad players. I didn't mean to play your opponents like they always play junk hands because even bad players get good cards.

What I meant by bad players, was that the players won't really play deceptively and bluff (this is especially true on fourth street). So the raise was definately not the optimal thing to do, and is even worse when you aren't sure if your opponent is a smart player.



I like that you are trying to change-up your plays. But I just don't think players at small stakes games take notice of this at all. Your thinking about changing it up is good, but that style of play is not for these small stakes tables where you have player after player calling you down to the river when the board shows 4 hearts and they hold the 8 of hearts (that's why they're profitable).


edit: I can see why you want to bet 5+ dollars on the turn, but with the texture of this flop, you *have* to be cautious once you bet out with three clubs showing. Remember, good laydowns happen because a player knows his cards will eventually come around again.