I need a good book on betting in NL

[Lansing]

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Well, now you've gone and given mixed arguments.

You said:
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As I have patiently explained, had he capped, he would have bet out, it would have been raised by the WT CO with the KK, and I could have checkraised both UTG and the fish for two more bets.

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But in the other thread you said:
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If I'd capped and bet out the flop, he (CO) would have flat called.

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So does the WT CO flatcall after it's capped, or does he raise? You have to choose one.

Justin A

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Read the post. It's pretty simple. If the UTG bets, nobody fears him, including the WT player. The UTG caps and bet out and the WT player would raise, and I would get to reraise the field for 2 bets.

But if *I* cap, given my table image, it's totally different. The KK then would almost certainly put me on QQ or AA, both of which own him on the flop. I bet out and he flat calls. But if I don't cap, the WT player doesn't fear me and raises, giving me the opportunity to hit the two fish for 2 bets cold. See?

[AngryCola]

I think Lansing is the most knowledgeable poster on these forums (obviously).

I would love to play a heads-up session with him to learn from his great expertise.

[Lansing]

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let me know where/when you play live within an hour and a half of toronto and i'll be there to take your money.

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No you won't. Stop yapping, internet toughie.

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rama, brantford or port perry? what date/time? i prefer rama or brantford since port perry is a smoking room. i haven't played live in a while even though i've been meaning to, so i figure its about time.

just name the time and place. maybe we can get a twoplustwo meetup going.

i'll play anything, but if it's all the same to you, i'd prefer not to play 5/10 or lower though since the rake in those games is a bit ridiculous.

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If I go out there before Xmas, I'll PM you. Then I'll meet you there and laugh in your face for being the kind of clod that gets all fired up about an internet conversation to the point that he feels the need to challenge that player live. Then I'll most likely sit down and start playing, and whether I take your money or you take mine will depend in large part on the cards. Then when I get up and leave, likely up a few bucks, I'll take the opportunity to laugh at you again for being such an utterly insecure douchebag.

[Lansing]

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I think Lansing is the most knowledgeable poster on these forums (obviously).

I would love to play a heads-up session with him to learn from his great expertise.

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Oh look, another toughie! That's really swell. Just play the 5-10 at Party. You'll eventually play against me for sure, and then you can take all my money, k?

[AngryCola]

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But if *I* cap, given my table image, it's totally different. The KK then would almost certainly put me on QQ or AA

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If this is the case, you are much to easy to read, and your table image needs adjusting. You must be willing to cap with other types of hands to avoid becoming an open book.

If the KK can specifically put you on 2 hands (AA or QQ), you are causing the problem for yourself. You should be able to cap it with AA and not have ANY opponent nail you down to a few hands.

Cap it with a few more hands, and you will be significantly harder to read. Certainly, nobody should be able to put you on 2 specific holdings preflop in limit HE.

[AngryCola]

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Oh look, another toughie! That's really swell. Just play the 5-10 at Party. You'll eventually play against me for sure, and then you can take all my money, k?

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What's a toughie? I was simply announcing my profound respect for you. I guess you just can't pay people compliments these days.

[stinkypete]

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If I go out there before Xmas, I'll PM you. Then I'll meet you there and laugh in your face for being the kind of clod that gets all fired up about an internet conversation to the point that he feels the need to challenge that player live. Then I'll most likely sit down and start playing, and whether I take your money or you take mine will depend in large part on the cards. Then when I get up and leave, likely up a few bucks, I'll take the opportunity to laugh at you again for being such an utterly insecure douchebag.

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i'm not fired up. i'm just looking for an interesting game.

[Justin A]

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Read the post. It's pretty simple. If the UTG bets, nobody fears him, including the WT player. The UTG caps and bet out and the WT player would raise, and I would get to reraise the field for 2 bets.

But if *I* cap, given my table image, it's totally different. The KK then would almost certainly put me on QQ or AA, both of which own him on the flop. I bet out and he flat calls. But if I don't cap, the WT player doesn't fear me and raises, giving me the opportunity to hit the two fish for 2 bets cold. See?


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Last post, I give up because you refuse to believe that anyone else on these boards could be right. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride and realize that when a lot of very good players are telling you you're wrong, that maybe, just maybe, you might actually be wrong.

This is a Party 5/10 game. WTF makes you think that CO has these reads. He could be doing lots of other things that would make him not pay attention to the game. Surfing the web or multi-tabling to name two.

This weak-tighty is somehow going to fear he's beat on a queen high flop when you cap, but doesn't get the hint after you check-raise him twice? Is your image really that bad that no one would think you would cap with AK? If so then your preflop play sucks. Maybe it's because you don't raise UTG with AQs.

You never responded to someone earlier who asked you to find one poster on this forum you respect who agrees that it's incorrect to cap preflop. Find one.

Justin A

[AngryCola]

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Last post, I give up because you refuse to believe that anyone else on these boards could be right. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride and realize that when a lot of very good players are telling you you're wrong, that maybe, just maybe, you might actually be wrong.

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Great post, and great advice.



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Is your image really that bad that no one would think you would cap with AK? If so then your preflop play sucks. Maybe it's because you don't raise UTG with AQs.

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This is what stood out to me, also. You can't play a style that lets your opponents narrow down your range of hands to about 3 big pairs. It's just suicide.

[Lansing]

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Last post, I give up because you refuse to believe that anyone else on these boards could be right. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride and realize that when a lot of very good players are telling you you're wrong, that maybe, just maybe, you might actually be wrong.

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Great post, and great advice.



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Is your image really that bad that no one would think you would cap with AK? If so then your preflop play sucks. Maybe it's because you don't raise UTG with AQs.

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This is what stood out to me, also. You can't play a style that lets your opponents narrow down your range of hands to about 3 big pairs. It's just suicide.

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You know NOTHING about what was happening, and you tell me my PF play sucks? That's idiotic. The fact is that I had had garbage cards for about an hour there, and had won two pots by showing down a set of aces (which I DID cap preflop) and KK. I quite literally didn't even have a suited connector to play other than that. So the comments had already started about how tight I was, and how I was waiting on aces. Not everyone on the Party 5-10 are idiots who can't observe these things.

And while nobody has had the courage to support my (clearly correct) play on this hand, that's probably because this board is full of internet badboys who try to tear people up when they disagree with them. The salient point is that there has not been one single poster who has yet given me a *good* reason why I should have capped preflop, knowing what I knew about the table dynamic. In contrast, I have given many good reasons not to cap, and I have shown you the math.

I'm extremely open-minded about my play, and always ready to receive good advice. But the (entirely unsolicited) advice I got on that hand was both mean-spirited and wrongheaded. It showed a lack of fundamental understanding about higher level thinking in poker, and I was really quite astonished to see the lack of strategic depth in the responses.

I came here thinking it would be a mecca of great players and great advice, but like anywhere else one has to separate the wheat from the chaff. And the posters who critiqued my play are most definitely the chaff.