JJ should come with their own documentation...

[SossMan]

I really dont get why folding is so bad here

it's not sooooo bad. just a little bad. seriously, I don't think folding here is giving up huge gobs of EV. I just think that calling has +EV, so that's what I'll do.

Someone explain to me why you want to get a ton of money in the pot IN EARLY POSTION with JJ in a reraised pot??

After a raise, reraise and a call, you are no longer truly in EP. I hope you can see why.

Seems like the range of hands he could have makes even the biggest "RAYMER POSITVE EV AUTOMATON CHIP MOVER" take pause.

What range do you put him on? Do an EV calculation based on that range and an array of flops that you go all in if there are no A,K,Q (unless there is a J, too). Instead of spouting general "I would never go all in w/ JJ early", why not actually do some analysis to back up your "hunches".

How bout 10-10 then or 9-9?? Where exactly do you Raymer disciples draw the line early in a tourney??


TT and 99 are only different because then JJ would definitely be in both ranges of hands. We are then playing significantly more for set value and less for overpair value.

If someone calls my all-in early in a MTT with JJ i'll be saying PRESSSSSTTTTTTTTTTOOOOOO!!!! ALL DAY.

That's because you are so weak tight that you would have reservations w/ reraising with anything other than AA-KK.

[scottjf8]

But I'd ask myself - what kind of flop do I like?

If I call here, and the flop is TJQ, I've flopped my set, but if the first raiser had AK, I might be in trouble, unless I get a board pair on the turn/river.

And if that flop is TJQ and he pushes, do you call? Or if he bets a pot sized bet, are you calling or pushing?

[TonyBlair]

True. True.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
But I'd ask myself - what kind of flop do I like?

If I call here, and the flop is TJQ, I've flopped my set, but if the first raiser had AK, I might be in trouble, unless I get a board pair on the turn/river.

And if that flop is TJQ and he pushes, do you call? Or if he bets a pot sized bet, are you calling or pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can come up with all sorts of fun hypotheticals, but you will never be able to account for the various combinations of postflop betting (assuming it's not heads up).
I will, however, tell you my postflop plan.

If I flop an overpair (without an OESD, i.e. the flop isn't 89T), and there is a bet and a raise to me, I'm folding. If it's a bet and a fold to me, I'm going to play poker (i.e. determine the size of the bet in relation to the pot and range my opponents hands based on frequency dealt and proceed from there).
If I flop a set, I'm going to the felt no matter what (with some weird exceptions like the flop is TJQ all one suit, and it's two all ins to me).

If the flop has even one overcard and there is any appreciable action, I'll fold.

Pretty standard, no? I think the stacks are deep enough to warrant playing JJ here.

[jadowa]

Thanks for all of the replies... I did think about flat calling it and seeing a flop. It was about a toss up in my mind. I went the safe route and just folded.

JJ defined the whole tourney for me. Later when I had t10,000 and blinds were 500/1000 I raised 3BB with AQ and button (who was a total CS with around t10,000) called me. Flop hit AJT and I pushed - He called with Pocket JJ. I hit runner runner A,Q to end his tourney.

I made it to final 6 and was 5th in chips with t60,000. I was dealt JJ. UTG raised blind 2XBB and I pushed from button to see QQ and end my tourney.