The wild 3-bets with medium pairs? Discussion about it?

House-Lion · #1 11-26-2004, 11:10 AM

Recently I have seen people 3-betting an early or middle-position open-raiser with medium pairs or 3-betting out of the big blind. This from pretty solid players that seem more TAG than LAG and far from maniacs or wild.

One example would be Hero holding a big hand worthy an open-raise, then being 3-bet by cut-off. All else fold.

Naturally if you hold a big pair you will be tempted to cap.

My question is how many sklansky-dollars are the other player loosing?

Many times he will be up against just overcards and hence have a tiny edge preflop, but time to time he will be up against a bigger pair, will those times tilt this play from slight favourite to pretty big looser?

Also the only way to be able to continue with a pair of 7s to 9s would be to either flop a set or to hit a flop with no overs.

I have been 3-betted preflop a few times when holding a big pair, one time the other guy hit his set, other times, god knows how many I guess I have hit my overcards.

One really great time we both hit our sets [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and rest asure Houselion gladly called the river-cap with the pure nuts!

Now to me this play 3-betting a medium pair just seems far out vs a solid raiser, or even against a not so solid raiser...

I have not even yet taken into account when the 3-betting gets cold-called by either button, one or two of the blinds but then playing with a medium pair quickly must turn really difficult, right?

Once it's heads up and the pre-flop gets capped, there is no way ever this is EV+ due to the implied odds for the medium-pair is getting shot, remember the bigger pair will likely pay off to the river and hence will have more than the flop to actually catch up a potential set in the medium-paired hand.

(Could someone confirm this with some numbers please)

House-Lion · #2 11-26-2004, 05:03 PM

Seems this thread needs an example of what I am talking about. It will also serve as an discrete way of bumping this thread.

Reads: Villain is very tight preflop but extreemly high aggression-levels post-flop (Maniacal, at least he gives flop-AG a face!). vp$ip ~12%, pfr 9%, aggression >3.5 overall.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, CO calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls. My plan is to pop the turn. 

Turn: (6.70 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls. Ok, he might have AKs or KK, the option of AA never occured to me here. 

River: (10.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players) Well, that ruled AA out unless partypoker is very rigged. River of fortune anyone? 
Hero bets If this guy is on the hand I think he is I might as well bet out not to check-raise and make him slow down. , CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero is disgruntled there is a cap now since this ruins his aggression-levels having to call instead of raise. 

Final Pot: 18.70 BB
Main Pot: 18.70 BB, between Hero and CO.
Results in grey below: 
Hero has Ah Ad (three of a kind, aces).
CO has 8s 8c (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 18.70 BB. 

Is that type of preflop play stemming from 15/30?

Bob T. · #3 11-26-2004, 05:10 PM

Is that type of preflop play stemming from 15/30?

No, crack cocaine is a more likely cause. Well, he put you on AK, and played from there. I think that as a general rule, middle pairs play really poorly against UTG or UTG+1 raises, unless I know my opponent is really LAG.

But, the middle pair does play better headsup, than it would in a three or four way pot, so if you are going to play in this situation, a threebet is a lot more prudent than a coldcall.

House-Lion · #4 11-26-2004, 06:09 PM

For discussion, say Hero will openraise with AA-99, ATs, AJo, KJs, KQo and better broadway-combos so against all non-paired combos villain will have a slight preflop-advantage.

Open-raiser might cap with JJ and up and also with AKs or maybe AQs.

As soon as the flop comes and the flop contains any card T, J, Q, K, A villain will have no clue if oponent has made a hand, not to mention all the times when open-raiser holds a bigger pair.

Second: If villain hopes to flop a set, isn't all his implied odds taken outside and shot dead once it gets capped preflop? Villain needs to win a lot of big street bets here to make up for a pre-flop cap, and risk drawing practically dead to a straight or a bigger set.

Third: Open-raiser might go very far with his hand and likely beyond the flop having a possible 6 clean outs with AK.

Fouth: What if a third player is to enter the pot? Now I would say villain is wading in deep doo-doo up to his neck if the third player is sane and the only reasonalbe rescue is to flop a set and hope he wont be out-drawn.

How many sklansky-bucks does this preflop play cost?