Playing against LAGs

[Synth]

Ok, i'm argueing with a friend over why I called a LAGs MP raise with ATo.

Scenario:
Blinds .50/1 (Each stack give or take except HERO, BUTTON, and MP2)

UTG ($20)
UTG + 1 ($12)
MP1 ($30)
MP2 ($35)
Villian ($70)
Hero($100)
Button ($85)
SB ($15)
BB ($40)

That day alone he raised with QJo, KTo, A9s, A4o, QTo, etc, In every position. Typical LAG

UTG + 1 limps, UTG + 2 limps, MP1 limps, MP2 folds, MP3 bets $5, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG + 1 calls, MP1 calls.

Every player but the UTG and Hero are fish. They have no instinks and base their play basically on what they think might happen if they call their back door flush.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to the raiser who bets $25. I push for $60 more and the Button calls. Everyone else folds back to the villian who calls.

I hold A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Villian holds K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Button holds Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

against a LAG, is it wrong to call or re-raise their pre-flop raise with ATo or any other marginal hand?

[Yeti]

Well, it's better to reraise in my opinion. Just don't even think about calling out of position though.

[soah]

AT is no good against a raise unless the guy is a complete maniac that will go to the felt with absolutely any pair or any draw. You will miss the flop two times out of three. You can't really continue post-flop with no pair but may end up folding the best hand. And when you hit the flop, you still may not have the best hand.

[Synth]

[ QUOTE ]
AT is no good against a raise unless the guy is a complete maniac that will go to the felt with absolutely any pair or any draw. You will miss the flop two times out of three. You can't really continue post-flop with no pair but may end up folding the best hand. And when you hit the flop, you still may not have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't consider this player a "maniac" that will raise with T2o after a raise re-raise, but he's definitaly a player that gives action on draws and medium or bottom pairs. He has a wide variety of hands he raises with and even though they aren't as bad as the one I just mentioned, I believe (especially in position) a marginal hand is good enough to call or raise this type of player with.

The whole point behind this thread wasn't about the beat I took or ATo specificaly, it was to tell my friend that you don't need a strong solid hand to call a LAG raise with because marginal hands like KQ,KJ,AT etc are usually in good shape.

Is this wrong?

[soah]

Well, are you planning on calling down with ace high just because you think your hand was the best preflop?

[Synth]

I called with AT because I was pretty certin it was best pre-flop and I was right it was the best hand. I am kicking myself for not re-raising because I might, just might have gotten the QT to fold but....

Come the flop depending on whether it was low cards or high cards would have determind how I continued the hand. If it was low cards I would have most likely value bet if we were heads up of course, if it was high and I missed I would probably lay it down. But because I hit trips the play is pretty straight forward

Now, will you answer the question on whether or not marginal hands are worth calling LAGs with, or are we going to discuss ATo further?

My computer is really slow and I can't be turning my fathers on and off everytime I want to post on twoplustwo so I would really like an answer to my question.

Ty

[soah]

I already answered that in my first reply. You need a better hand to call a raise than to make one. Potentially dominated offsuit hands are no good.

[PoBoy321]

I think that synth's point was that after seeing the villain riase KJo, QTo, A9s and other marginal hands like that, he felt that his AT was more likely dominating than being dominated, which turned out to be correct. However, I have found that against a LAG player, you really have to be holding onto a nut hand pre-flop to really bust them because they will often call to the river and go to the felt with any pair, any draw and will outdraw on you much more often than anyone else. Therefore, I'm going to say that your pre-flop play was wrong, not because you made a wrong read on the player and felt that your hand was good when it wasn't (it turned out that you were about a 60-30-10 favorite pre-flop), but because against this type of maniac player, you've basically got to sit down and say "OK, this is a hand that is so powerful, that I would not feel uncomfortable getting all of my chips in if I hit it well." Hands like AA, KK, QQ, AK and AQs are hands that I feel this applies to, and AT is just a hand that, short of a flop coming AAT, I don't like getting all of my chips in with.

[BigToga]

I don't think the call is a terrible play if you believe that you have the best hand. I don't know about a re-raise here though - you have two UTG limpers and that could mean something big like QQ+, unless they always play their big hands fast... When you made the call, you have every reason to believe that at least three other people will call with you giving you proper odds to "fish", so to speak. Just make sure that, with this hand, you aren't solely playing for the Ace to come off on the flop since you might be out-kicked by just about anyone who calls the raise. Play for the straight, two pair, or trips and fold on the flop if nothing hits you...

You played it perfectly in my mind... I'm assuming the QT beat you although you don't say it. You put your money in when you had the best hand PF and on the flop - what else can you do? If you don't like people playing this "fishy" against you, don't play the $0.50-$1 tables...