AQo vs tagish 3bettor

Professor Frink · #1 11-23-2004, 02:15 AM

No good reads but MP2 seemed solid

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero folds...

thoughts?

vetman81 · #2 11-23-2004, 02:25 AM

Looks good to me...if the guy betting when the Q hits doesnt scare him, then I doubt your hand is good, and I wouldnt want to call two big bets here to find out. JMO.

helpmeout · #3 11-23-2004, 02:25 AM

I usually fold the flop here or check/raise.

Professor Frink · #4 11-23-2004, 10:41 AM

Is the plan for the check-raise to clean up outs and get it heads up? I didn't think of it at the time, there would be a chance he'd three bet it though.

Professor Frink · #5 11-23-2004, 10:42 AM

Actually, check raise wouldn't clean up any outs other than the unlikely A8 + Q8 since there's a pair there

StellarWind · #6 11-23-2004, 12:07 PM

The flop is fine.

I would have bet the turn. Too much risk of a 4-way free card with the best hand. Plus not taking the initiative could lead to serious difficulties ...

Your problem is you don't have a read on MP1. I think he has a one-pair hand which may or may not be a queen. Unfortunately MP2 may have a better idea about MP1 than we do. That makes the raise unreadable. If he doesn't believe MP1 the turn raise could be JJ-99 seeking to protect his hand and buy a free showdown. He could also have KQ or another AQ. Plus the usual AA-QQ monsters.

You're in a bad spot. Neither play is obviously correct. Probably I grit my teeth and call, then hate myself when I lose 3BB. But you really could have the best hand here.

cov47 · #7 11-23-2004, 12:24 PM

Unless our 3-betting friend is laggy, I think after getting 3-bet preflop and having nothing but overs on a paired flop, I just fold. If I felt like staying in, I'd bet the turn. The Q is about the best card you can see here. If you don't bet at it, you run the risk of having to cold call two (as happened here). Bet it, maybe you can freeze up AK or JJ-99 and take control of the hand.

StellarWind · #8 11-23-2004, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless our 3-betting friend is laggy, I think after getting 3-bet preflop and having nothing but overs on a paired flop, I just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
The pair of twos makes it very likely that the flop helped no one. It's actually a much better flop than 872 would be.

I don't see how you can fold the flop at 15-1.

But I do agree that you can't just stand around and watch in a 4-way pot after you get such a great turn. Checking the turn is the big error in the hand.

Professor Frink · #9 11-23-2004, 10:39 PM

Bingo. At the time i was thinking check raise MP2 turn bet which was the completely wrong line to take. Even if it went as planned he'll likely three bet, making it another 2BB to get to showdown.

As for folding the flop...What the? Good chance i'm drawing to 6 outs against JJ, TT, 99 and 3 to KK, QQ, AKs, AKo. If he's got AA that sux [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I was so angry at myself when i saw the cards, river was a blank, MP1 had KQo MP2 had AQo and took it down.

helpmeout · #10 11-23-2004, 10:59 PM

Folding the flop is fine, the problem with continuing is that you are usually behind and you have to pay him off frequently so the 15/1 you are getting is actually much worse because you dont know if you are ahead when you are good.

If he is a loose raiser or a bit weak/tight with overcards I sometimes checkraise the flop so I can see where he is at or slow him or the rest of the field down. He might just throw that AKo away if he doesnt improve the turn.

If he 3bets you know he has a big pair and can dump your hand. If he doesnt you know that if you spike a Q or an A you are probably even money.