poker software = cheating?

[notsosmart]

Hi All - I'm fairly new to the site so please excuse my ignorance if this has been talked about before (most likely, and if so please point me to the thread – I couldn’t find much in a quick Search).

I had an argument with a friend of mine - he was telling me about the advantages of pokertracker and calculatem and other enhanced pieces of software that can run alongside your game window on certain sites while you're playing Online.

Does this not strike anyone else as a form of cheating? I know it does not explicitly tell you what your opponents hands are, nor can you be 100% sure of any 'recommendations' it gives based on past hand data....But, it still gives you an unfair advantage over other players at the table. No?

I am all for tracking programs that will help you analyze your own play and make you a better player in that sense, as that is for self-improvement. But, it seems that there are an increasing number of programs coming out that stay open alongside your table software (or even on top of each player) to *help you make decisions* based on 'past data' for that player?

Maybe I am out of line - I've only been playing online for about 5-6 months and may not be familiar with the ‘actual’ or ‘proper’ uses of these programs, but I was just wondering if anyone shared my opinions or could change my opinions on this matter?

I have read some strong comments against Online collusion where two players will go online and run up the pot or just tell each other what hands they have to ‘slightly’ increase their chances and split their earnings at the end.....this is obviously widely frowned upon, but I haven't yet seen anything strong like that against software that would enhance your chances of winning just as much or more against certain players.

It is one thing to take your own notes on a player and ‘have book’ on him/her. It is completely another to download entire table histories where you weren’t even at the table to gain information about how each player played each hand while you weren’t there! No? If not, why wouldn't the sites just provide this information for you?

In my mind, poker software should be used to keep track of one's own hand/roi/itm/bb-100/etc. for monitoring personal statistics. It shouldn't include anything specific about other players’ play that would give you an unfair advantage at the table. This should be done through experience, not automation?

Any and all comments appreciated. Please don't rip into me too much as I know many of you are for and even involved in creating this software - I'm just looking for advice and/or general discussion here that might enlighten me to this aspect of playing online.

Matt

[Lost Wages]

No, I don't think that using tracking software while playing is cheating in any way, even if the stats are from games that you did not participate in (aka data mining). It is no different than say, Major League Baseball, where scouts are paid to go to games and record information on opposing teams.

Lost Wages

[jrz1972]

PokerTracker is just record-keeping. It's not even close to being a gray area.

WinHoldEm (and similar programs) are completely different and are clearly cheating.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerTracker is just record-keeping. It's not even close to being a gray area.

WinHoldEm (and similar programs) are completely different and are clearly cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly right.

[soah]

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/featu...ToWinPart1.htm

If you take the time to read that article and really think about its main points (and how they relate to online poker of course) you may see this from a different perspective.

[sin808]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this not strike anyone else as a form of cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the information collected is available to everyone at the table if they so choose. You may have an advantage in that they are probably not using it, but it is still available to them.

[notsosmart]

First of all, thanks for your responses. I do understand most of your points, but I still have a hard time not seeing this as an unfair advantage.

Here is my thought process:

First, thanks for the link about 'playing to win', it was very interesting and I agree that one wants to do everything he can 'within the boundaries' to win - especially when it comes to making money. However, I think there is a difference here. It is one thing to 'play to win' and make yourself a better poker player by reading books and following newsgroups/posting sites to gain all the poker knowledge one can to make his/her game the best it can be through experience. It is completely another to install software that links into Poker Programs to keep data on your opponents! Sure, that plays into the 'boundaries of the game' but only because it hasn't strictly been outlawed(?)

[ QUOTE ]

No, the information collected is available to everyone at the table if they so choose. You may have an advantage in that they are probably not using it, but it is still available to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true then why don't I see ads for 'pokertracker' or other software people are using right on the Poker Site I'm playing at? If Poker Sites wanted these programs to be able to 'link' into them and track information on all the players, would they not already have the capability embedded into them?? Or maybe the programmers of the software saved that part of it for themselves?? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Anyways, I'm still open to change my mind - does anyone have any proof that using PokerTracker is an accepted practice by any Poker Sites? Or I guess it doesn't matter, because no one knows who is using it and who isn't, and why would they care - they take rake either way?

To go back to the sports example, rather than 'common practice/acceptable' scouting, it seems to me more like a 'scout' is sneaking into the coach's office and stealing the other team's entire playbook - rather than just sitting in the stands and scouting their plays/players. Or more accurately, finding a database of EVERY team in the league's playbook that will easily be at your fingertips whenever you are playing that team.....

(p.s. again, not to be misunderstood - I have no problems with software that simply keeps track of one's own statistics for personal improvement/management.)

In one sense, programs that keep statistics on opposing players aren't much worse than spyware programs on your home computer - watching in the background and relaying information about every move you make to an outside source while you aren't even aware. Just so they can send you an extra pop-up advertisement in the future based on the things you like and have a better chance of you purchasing some item (or biting on some hook to call an extra bet) in the future.

I guess i just have to realize that because money and chance is involved, you have to do whatever you can to increase your chances of making money. Regardless of whether 'everyone' has this extra advantage that you have.

I just thought I'd bring it up to see if anyone shared my opinion at all.....I think it might be my heavy coaching background that is skewing my thinking more towards 'fair play' than 'making money'.

Thx all, any further comments are welcome!

[ptrack pat]

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone have any proof that using pokertracker is an accepted practice by any Poker Sites?

[/ QUOTE ]

Party rewrote their software to store hand histories on the players hard drive because of the strain placed on their mail servers by people requesting hand histories. I worked directly with their lead developer on this to work out the kinks.

I have also worked directly with the people at PokerRoom, the Prima sites (Royal Vegas, The Gaming Club) and corresponded with Lee Jones at PokerStars.

[SlantNGo]

Except everything that Poker Tracker uses, which are hand histories, are available by request at all poker sites, and in the case of Party Poker and its skins, is actually saved onto your hard drive. There's no data that PT uses that anyone can't get.

[ QUOTE ]
it seems to me more like a 'scout' is sneaking into the coach's office and stealing the other team's entire playbook

[/ QUOTE ]

[sin808]

Hard to find better proof than that [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]