Hand to Talk About

[SoBeDude]

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interesting view but a 3-bet and fold on a 7-high flop i don't think is correct. if the BB raises your questions are answered for the most part, but folding to a "maniac's" bet is wrong.

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Doesn't this depend on the maniac's postflop play? What if he usually goes limp and doesn't bet into a 3bettor unless he hit his hand?

Or what if our hero tried to isolate him with a marginal holding? Then since the BB came along, he's unsure of his actual outs even if he does hit them?

Was this a non-typical play for the BB? I'd guess the BB would play many more hands here, suspecting Hero is isolating with a larger than normal range of hands, but this might not be the case. Is he Tommy-like in the blinds? If so, the call clearly sends off alarm bells once he missed the flop.

But without some more specifics on the players in question, as a general rule the fold can't be right.

-Scott.

[J.A.Sucker]

OK, this hand is kind of the ultimate extension of Clark's hand from a few days ago.

Hero isolates the known maniac in the game with a hand. The other good players in the game KNOW HE'S DOING THIS!!!! Why can't you all figure this out? His 3 bet means hardly anything. That's one reason why you need to be loaded for bear if you do these kind of things. In fact, his reraise here does less to define his hand than a normal raise, and good players will see lots of flops to win a big pot. I'll be in there with position on the Hero's isolating hands with many more re-steal hands. From the BB, I'll also be in there, knowing that I'll essentially have position on the flop, since I'll check every flop. I know that the odds of this being checked through on the flop are about the same as Ron Artest not getting some time off from the NBA to promote his rap album.

Now, he hits about as good a flop as he could hope for and he doesn't raise it to get it headsup with the maniac? Terrible. If his hand isn't good enough to win unimproved versus two essentially random cards enough to make a raise here the obvious play, then he should have folded preflop. Further, fearing some sort of monster from the BB is terrible. He ran over himself, and dumped a huge pot away.

In Clark's hand, his play is bad because other good players will throw flies in your ointment often enough that you're putting in too much money in bad spots. If they all stay out of your way, then these plays are fine. This is seldom the case if you play relatively high. Even the weaker players know what you're doing, and they'll make you pay. The same thing applies here.

If I've got KJ, then I'm raising, and it isn't close. If I have a monster, then maybe I'll just call and let the BB hand himself, pouncing on the turn, though if the BB knows I will raise a fair or middling hand here, then I may raise a powerhouse, too. If I have something that can't stand this flop, I'll wait until another hand to bust up the maniac.

I can't believe that anyone on this board can't see how wretched this hand is. Clark's was somewhat debateable, but not nearly as bad - probably a small loser overall, but possibly break-even in the 30 game in Vegas these days, where people don't like to get involved for some reason. In this hand here, the hero would be better setting fire to his money at the table; at least everyone would have been entertained.

[J.A.Sucker]

If you can figure this out, then I've got some more lucky chips for you to have. Maybe something like 9Ts or QJ? Who knows.

[schroedy]

I was going to suggest A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as a possible hand for hero, but in light of the flop perhaps A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a better guess.

[Diplomat]

Sucker,

A few comments. If the big blind is indeed a good player (which is not noted in Mason's post) he should know that often it will be 4 or 5 bets before the flop, as he is stuck between a maniac and an isolator. Presuming again that he is a good player and knows that the isolator is a good player, he should know that his isolation standards, although much lower than a typical three-bet, will not be exceptionally weak. Therefore, his calling standards pre-flop will not be that low.

Despite this, I agree that a fold in this spot is probably not the best; my question was what you would do with a hand such as KJ, which easily could be dominated by the big blind. I suppose you interpreted the question as something else. I also agree that if the hero continues, he probably should raise the flop. But again presuming that the big blind is a good player, he probably will catch on and step into the fray a bit more.

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Now, he hits about as good a flop as he could hope for


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I'm not sure where this comes from. If by good you mean it has likely missed the big blind, then I agree. If not, I don't really follow..?

-Diplomat

[NabO]

i mean bb...

[mike l.]

i was trying to decide what was interesting about this post and then i decided it was this:

the game of hold em is now being played so horribly by so many people at all limits that it is really just astounding. but it can be a little tricky sometimes to retain your composure and sense of etiquette and not impulsively guffaw loudly, nor scream out "oh my god! i cant believe what that guy just did! did you see that?? what a freaking retard!" at the table when you see plays like the one above. just quietly observing, taking a mental note, whatever, and not heckling, snickering, pointing, or falling out of one's chair aghast at the awfulness of one's opponents is the best form.

thanks go out to mason for the gentle reminder on how to handle these sort of delicate situations.

[Duke]

A couple of options. Maybe the Hero actually saw the maniac's hole cards. Maybe the maniac has some sort of a sick tell. Maybe you were playing with typical Bellagio 30-60 players. To rephrase, maybe you were playing with idiots.

~D

[Ian J]

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I was going to suggest A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] as a possible hand for hero, but in light of the flop perhaps A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is a better guess.

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I rate the chances of hero having an Ace in his hand here at exactly 0%. Hell, hero could literally have one Ace and no other card in his hand here and raising is still correct. I even doubt hero had King high here.

EDIT: I just realized that you're suggesting that our hero had a pair on the flop. There is absolutely no way that is the case.

[YoureToast]

Of course, its impossible to know whether this fold was a good fold -- he could have had pocket 7s and the fold of course would be moronic. However, our hero is 2 to maniac's left, a good if not perfect position. He likely plans to win a lot of money from this maniac over the course of the night. He wants to improve these chances by letting maniac know that he will fold to his bets occasionally. He is setting up the maniac. This effect, plus the risk of the BB, would completely justify this call if, for example, hero had overcards and no clubs. But what do I know? It seems like everybody here would never fold to a maniac. My theory with maniacs is 2-fold. 1. Lose small pots, win big ones. 2. Even maniacs and idiots can get good cards.