Arrrggh, A/A all-in called by FIVE IDIOTS!

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
READ A BOOK.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of my post are you specifically taking issue with?

[BusterStacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
READ A BOOK.

[/ QUOTE ]

What part of my post are you specifically taking issue with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm taking issue with the orignal poster who seems unable to understand why he wants callers. My post was intended to convey that most decent hold 'em books, and poker books in general, explain exactly why you should be happy with the resulting callers.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=617144
pokenum -h ad ac - js jh - 5c 5s - qc jc - ks ts
Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Ad 433287 50.93 415792 48.88 1589 0.19 0.510
Js Jh 75980 8.93 765550 89.99 9138 1.07 0.094
5s 5c 137993 16.22 711086 83.59 1589 0.19 0.163
Qc Jc 90757 10.67 750773 88.26 9138 1.07 0.111
Ks Ts 103513 12.17 745566 87.64 1589 0.19 0.122

A coin flip on a 5:1 payoff... hell yes.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is tournament poker, not a ring game. I thought you were supposed to avoid the coin flips early-on if possible? Anyway, like everyone said. I got in there with the best of it and just got unlucky. Such is life, part of poker. I'll survive, it was just a buck. Glad it wasn't a 200 dollar tourney, then I'd be burning some buildings down or something. *smirk*

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite. Some people argue that early on you should avoid plays that are only slightly +EV for significant portions of your stack if you are among the best players in the tournament.

First, this is hugely +EV, not slightly.

Second, most players are not among the best in the tournament. In fact, 95% of the players are not in the top 5%.

There are some very very good tournament players, like Paul Phillips, who will take ANY edge early on. Later on, the waters get much murkier.

My own take on the avoiding small edges is that I try to avoid putting my money in if my uncertainty about the edge is high. That is, if I THINK a situation is slightly +EV, but that assessment is made on assumptions that could easily be wrong, I will tend to not push my small perceived edge early on.

[phixxx]

You aren't taking a coinflip persay, you're getting 5:1 on your money. You're even money to 5x your stack, something you need to do early to survive. You may want to pass up a coinflip to double your stack, but never to 5x it. Chances like these don't come up often enough.

[swede0530]

[ QUOTE ]
How can this be a great spot to be in when the chances of A/A being cracked increases considerably when you're up against five callers? Wouldn't a great spot to be in be one that has my hand with a significant edge over my opponents?

[/ QUOTE ]

TOP Chapter One, fundamental theorum.

You did the right thing as doofus, dope, knucklehead, and his two friends all did the wrong thing based solely on the cards (never mind the odds or numbers).

You were in with the best of it and got outdrawn.

Happens in the Big Bucks ($1 tournaments) all the time.

[Malcom Reynolds]

I thought you were supposed to avoid the coin flips early-on if possible?

In a coin flip, your EV might only be marginally profitable. If the blinds are 15/30 and you are both all-in for t1500, you have the pocket pair and they have AK, 55% of the time you will win 1545, 45% of the time you will lose t1500:

0.55*1545 + 0.45*(-1500) = 174.75

So you expect to make t174.75 on the coin flip, and it's a very slightly +EV play.

In your situation, you will lose t1500 49% of the time and make t6000 51% of the time:

0.49*(-1500) + 0.51*6000 = 2325

Meaning this is a HUGELY +EV play, as you expect to make like 1.5x your stack, much more than doubling up.

[senjitsu]

Curteosy of Murile

Opponents, percentage won, estimated pot equity (assuming same number of bets per player):

1 85.3 1.704
2 73.4 2.202
3 63.9 2.556
4 55.9 2.795
5 49.2 2.952
6 43.6 3.052
7 38.8 3.104
8 34.7 3.123
9 31.1 3.110

That said, no you do not want five callers to _any_ preflop all in in a tournament (though you would absolutely want it in a cash game). Your tournament chips have a decreasing marginal value (because once you dont have any left, you lose)... the same principle applies to risking every dollar you have on a coin flip where you get paid 2-1 if you win -- yeah, it's +ev if you dont take into account the marginal value of your money.


[ QUOTE ]
Alright, so everyone is saying I want to have five people call my all-in with A/A?

Seriously, what are the odds that my A/A will hold up against five random hands all-in pre-flop? I thought you want to get heads-up or maybe have two callers max. Anything more than that and your aces stand to be outdrawn. Am I wrong in that thinking?

I know I want people making poor plays, but the percentage for my hand holding up drops ridiculously when there are so many people calling, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

[grandgnu]

*sigh* Gotta love the "elitist" attitude that permeates some of the members of these boards.

I'll take constructive criticism, but the holier-than-thou attitudes of some of the people on here are ridiculous.

Regarldess, I'm saying that I would rather be a favorite to win a hand by a significant margin than an underdog to win a hand but have a larger win amount possible. My reason being that this is tournament play and if you lose you're out. It's not a cash ring game where in the long run I can make more money off these hands.

In the tournaments I risk my entire game on such plays. Regardless, if five people had gone all-in pre-flop before me and I held the A/A I'd still stick around. So I guess it's kinda the same with them calling my all-in. Just amazes me how many terrible players there are out there in those crapshoots. They'll think J/5, Q/4 and K/2 are GOLD as long as they're suited. *smirk*

This is why I avoid limit hold em ring games, you'll get a table full of chasers and premium hands then have trouble holding up.

I prefer the Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo ring games. So many players will call you with 2nd and 3rd best hands, it's a friggin gold mine! But again, I think tournament play is a lot different. Guess I just needed to vent about my bad luck there.

[manpower]

See this is an interesting idea. One one hand, if you got AA on every hand, and went all in every time with five callers, you'd eventually go broke, but that assumes that someone would have the stack to break you. However, the more I think about this, the more I think it's a tremendously +ev situation.

Here's why. You're a little above 1 to 1 to quintuple up, as has been stated, early in the tournament. I didn't catch how large the tourney was, but if it's a single table, you're sitting on 6000 chips to four other guys with 1000 apiece and your looking at easy money, probably first maybe second. Very +EV. If it's a big multi, well [censored], you're in damn good position too.

I think the even more important point, in terms of EV, is that it's better to have this chance and lose early than not have it and finish just below the money after wasting an hour or several. Why? well if you lose early, you can go play ring for a certain BB/hr, or you can enter another tourney at X winrate. And you haven't invested that extra time in the tournament. So basically, if you're gonna lose, it's better to lose early, and well... if you're gonna win, it's better to win early too.

[BSXX]

I smell what you're cooking grandgnu, about the hand and the attitude you get from this forum. Everybody is an expert, haven't you realized that? That is why you see us on the Travel Channel and ESPN every week.

In a tournament, particularly in the early stages, you are not overly concerned with 6:1 or 3:1 or 100:1 when you are all-in, YOU WANT TO WIN THE FREAKIN POT! You are very concerned about that! And with 5 callers your odds of winning that pot are drastically reduced, even if it is a coin flip and even if you do get 6:1 on your money. And if the coin doesn't flip your way, you don't have the luxury of debating the odds (unless it is a rebuy). They seem to forget that if you don't survive, you can't win, regardless of the odds. Early in a tournament (unless it is a rebuy), I would rather 2:1 on my money and be a 4:1 favorite. Having a huge chip lead early in a no-limit tournament is great, but it is no guarantee of anything.

As you know, however, there aren't many rocks in a $1 tournament. You might try a 3 or 4x BB raise next time, particularly in this type of game.