Suited connector poll

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way: Pretend that instead of 6 people seeing the flop for a raise playing at a 1/2 table think of it as 6 people limping in at a 2/4 table. In that case, you'd limp in behind them w/ that 65s from the cutoff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no mathematical sense. You have to cold-call two small bets. Limping is calling one small bet, so what you propose is limping on a 2/4 table, and then once the flop comes, you're back on a 1/2 table.

Also, following this ridiculous funhouse logic, would you fold TT on a 4/8 table because it's like getting capped preflop on a 1/2 table? You might even have to fold KK on a 40-80 table because it's putting you all in on a 1/2 table.

[BucHawk]

I understand and concede your point that your implied odds are less because the betting on later streets will be smaller, but part of the implied odds include how many people will come along for the ride. I guess what I should have said and the point I'm trying to make is that part of the rationale for not calling raises cold w/ speculative hands like this is because raises tend to also thin out the field making your hand -EV on later streets even if you do pick up a draw.

I'd probably put this hand on turbo muck pre-flop, but I don't think it's a big mistake (even if it's one at all) to call this and see the flop 5-7 handed.

For what it's worth: 6 reasonable hands you might see puts 5s6s in not a bad position....

Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards EV
6s 5s 0.214
As Qh 0.174
Tc Th 0.201
Jd Kh 0.144
Ac 7c 0.135
Kd 9d 0.132

Even if you completely take away the flush even though unlikely, this hand is not looking up very far (changed the AQ to suited of our same suit):

Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards EV
6s 5s 0.153
As Qs 0.222
Tc Th 0.203
Jd Kh 0.152
Ac 7c 0.136
Kd 9d 0.134

[BaronVonCP]

you make twice as much money postflop on the 2/4 than you do on the 1/2

that counts I promise

[Altaslim]

I wouldn't consider calling for a moment. Even if the flop hits me I'm still drawing and have little potential to make enough money to make up for the vast majority of times the flop misses me and I have a sure loser.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
For me, it's not a bad feeling about coldcalling. All the NYers see me do that a fair amount--probably too much. I don't like playing an implied odds hand that usually flops just a draw when my implied odds are halved.

[/ QUOTE ]

SFER, I like the way you put this... Especially the part about calling the hand an "implied odds hand." I haven't heard it called that elsewhere, but I have thought that these hands should be called that way, rather than "good multiway.."

Also, the part about just picking up a draw was good...

[slimpikkens]

As sfer pointed out, calling a raise with a suited connector cuts your implied odds in half. I’ve become accustomed to that ‘rule’ over the past couple months. But what seemed counterintuitive to me about this situation is folding when my equity is telling me I’m going to win more than my fair share.

Assuming one of the blinds calls and the original limpers call, that’ll put seven in the pot:

5s6s against Qh4h, 2d2c, 9h6h, AsKc, JcTc, Qc8d

has 15.45% equity according to Pokerstove. I tried a couple other hand combinations against 5s6s and best case scenario I saw was an equity of 19% and worst case scenario was an equity of 9%.

So if I have 15-16% equity in a 7-way pot, I’m winning more than my fair share. But it’s closer than I thought it would be…real close according to these generalizations (especially if you consider the occasional tie that’s built into the pokerstove equity numbers).

The other important factor mentioned was 5s6s being a drawing hand. You have to consider all the times you hit a piece of the flop and donate flop/turn bets only to miss on the river. That’s why it’s easier to make a decision here with a small pair: you can quickly calculate how many additional bets you’d have to collect to make the call profitable KNOWING you’re folding if you miss the set. Much more difficult to approximate how many flop/turn bets you’ll have to put in on average to hit the draw (although saying that makes me want to try).

Anyway, I’m starting to ramble…

Thanks to all who voted/replied.

[gamblore99]

with the large amount of opponents, there is a very good chance the BB is gonna call, especially in a 2-4 game. I also think there is a fairly good change the button and sb will call
i expect 6-8 players with an average of something like 6.75. 6.75:1 is good yes?