Help me with my live play (long)

[Kripke]

I have to admit that I’m really struggling to beat live games, more specifically at the casinos. Yes, everyone says that the games in the B&Ms are much softer and so on, and no doubt that in general people are right. Generally players at the casinos seem much more loose and willing to gamble. (Some doesn’t even seem to know that they’re playing poker.)

Here’s the background story: I’ve been playing a few times at Commerce and Hollywood Park, every time, believe it or not, with a negative outcome. Nothing crazy, but just a small loss every time. Now of course, I’ve only played four sessions, so maybe I’ve just had a couple of bad days, I’m not sure.

Online, I am a winning player and have been for app. eight months (I’ve only played seriously for eight months). I play both limit games (usually 2-4, 3-6 and occasionally 5-10) and NL games (Usually max 50, occasionally 100). So it is somewhat small stakes. However, whenever I head out to the casinos to play, I seem to being doing rather poorly. Even though there is absolutely no doubt that the games I play online are filled with much better players than the ones at the casinos, I just can’t seem to beat them.

Today I played 4-8 at Hollywood Park and people there were playing looser than a 0.5-1 game a Party. Naturally I tightened up, playing pretty much only premiums. But since raising drives no one out of the pots there, I just got sucked out on again and again. Same happened last time I played limit at Commerce. Raises and reraises didn’t stop the players there from trying to suck out. Now I’m wondering if I should start playing more hands such as suited connectors, even 1-gappers, since every pot is multiway.

At the NL tables, the players are usually a little better, but not much. Almost all of them are too loose and overvalue their hands way too much. This usually results in pots escalated beyond reason. The problem is that often you’ll see a LAG take down pot after pot with absolute garbage that hits two pair and so on and this can cause me to play a bit scared. Online, I’m absolutely thrilled to have a player like this at the table, but live I get nervous. Of course, not to the point where I’m folding aces and kings, but to the point where I may fold AKo for a raise, because I just don’t feel confident in betting it even if I do hit on the flop.

I really think my hand reading skills online is what makes a winning NL player, but live I have increasing difficulties reading people’s hands and figuring out where I am at. I think it’s a combination of the players there playing way too many hands, and the way the pots are often escalated – some will overbet the pot with TPShittyK. This also results in me limping in a lot more than I would usually do, because 3-4 times the BB raises are not respected by anyone. To get people to fold you have to raise like 8 times the BB, before people will fold. For illustration, I get AKo and raise in MP to 4-times the BB. 3 Callers: Flop comes K,T,8 rainbow, I bet about the pot, one caller and now a player in EP checkraises me, double my bet. Online, I would usually feel much less confident in my hand if this happened than I do live. Because in these games somebody with K9o could be making this move, thinking his hand is really good, and then again he could also have KT, K8, T8, 88 maybe even JJ, or QQ. The possibilities are endless. I have a hard time reacting to these kinds of things, especially when I don’t feel to confident in my own hand. However, limp-reraises are always AA, that’s the level of play here.

It’s kind of frustrating that I’m not beating these games, because I think playing live poker, especially NL is so much more fun that playing online. Especially considering how badly (or so it seems to me) most of these people play.

I guess I’m not quite sure what kind of advice I’m looking for, but has anyone else had similar experiences or does anyone have some good advice for the transition to live play.

Any comments appreciated, thanks.

- Kripke

[bernie]

Lots of stuff here.

[ QUOTE ]
I’ve been playing a few times at Commerce and Hollywood Park, every time, believe it or not, with a negative outcome. Nothing crazy, but just a small loss every time. Now of course, I’ve only played four sessions, so maybe I’ve just had a couple of bad days, I’m not sure.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wait til your 5+ str8 sessions of big losses. Those are a blast. 4 small losing sessions is nothing. However...

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that often you’ll see a LAG take down pot after pot with absolute garbage that hits two pair and so on and this can cause me to play a bit scared. Online, I’m absolutely thrilled to have a player like this at the table, but live I get nervous. Of course, not to the point where I’m folding aces and kings, but to the point where I may fold AKo for a raise, because I just don’t feel confident in betting it even if I do hit on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've played the same texture online successfully, there is no reason to change how you'd play it live. Do you do well in these type of games online? Then what's the difference? Re asses your starting hands in these games and realize why some 'types' of hands play much better in these games.

Nerves? Yeah, that could be a big factor. Experience will help greatly in that area. Adjusting times to go from online to getting used to live can vary depending on the player. But it really shouldn't take long. If you're that nervous playing in front of others, it may take a bit longer. It may mean you also have some doubts about your game. Maybe even to the extent you wonder how others on your table are percieving you. If that's a part of it, screw them. Read, study, post, respond to post and compare your thinking to others, play, blah, blah. Know your game better than anyone else at the table knows 'your' game. This can help the nerves greatly.

Personally, i'd concentrate on one discipline at a time. Preferrably limit. Ingrain it. Then branch out into the others. Sometimes, playing different disciplines such as switching from n/l to limit, and vice versa, some of the plays bleed into one another creating little leaks both preflop and postflop. I had this problem when i was starting so i woodshedded for awhile til i felt extremely confident in one way of playing. Then it was much easier to switch back and forth. Leaks sprung at times, but they were more quickly identified and remedied. I had one nice leak develop in limit that slavic helped me fester out that came about from playing a mass of n/l SNGs.

Anyways, without anything else to go on, chew on these for awhile. They may or may not apply, but should be worth looking into. Know your weaknesses as much as your strengths. Knowing both well builds a solid game.

You also have to be brutally honest with yourself. Don't give yourself a gimme and overlook a possible leak because it may be basic. Check it all.

cya

b

[D.H.]

[ QUOTE ]
Today I played 4-8 at Hollywood Park and people there were playing looser than a 0.5-1 game a Party. Naturally I tightened up, playing pretty much only premiums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is part of your problem. Why do you tighten up when the game is extremely loose? In a very loose game you can play more hands profitably than in a tight game.

© D.H.

[kalooki45]

the only thing that strikes me about your post is that you say you're new to live play.
I too am a strictly online player--but if I were to start playing live, I'd be intimidated by having to add the enormous factor of personal observation, tells, etc. to card reading.
I've always found that online play allows better concentration--live play throws in a lot of distraction, noise, other stuff that may throw you off till you're more used to it.
I'm no poker expert, but if you KNOW how they play where you're going, it seems that someone here could advise you on a strategy that would be profitable...I'm not the one, tho!

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you tighten up when the game is extremely loose? In a very loose game you can play more hands profitably than in a tight game

[/ QUOTE ]

Upon further reading in his post you will find that this 'loose' game was also highly aggressive. At leats that's the impression i got. In that case, you don't loosen up.

b

[Kripke]

Thanks for the replies. I'll keep working on my live play, probably try and stick to limit and work on from there.

I'll attempt to focus more on playing my own game, and not deviate from the way I play online. Hopefully, with some more experience I'll be beating these games regularly.

And I should probably work on my concentration as well. As Kalooki said, there are a lot more distractions in live games, than online.

- Kripke

[Bodhi]

One of the things I can't stand about large cardrooms is the noise and the people. There's always the constant drone of the employee calling names for tables, people nervously klinking their chips together and the ugly mumps rebuying every 30min for $20 at 2-4. They're charging you time, even 1.5BB/hour, the dealer wastes time on superficial garbage (they'll spend 3 min calling someone over to collect eighty bucks); sometimes you can tell they hate their jobs so much they loathe the sight of you, grumble as you strain to hear what they say.

[nikeeki]

Hi,
I'm not an expert, but I can give you some general advice. I play live 5/10 limit hold em. The games I play in are mostly LP with a few LAGs. I recently tried internet play and found my game crippled because I rely so heavily on watching the players.
1.The first thing I recommend is to read
<font color="red">Mike Caro's Book of Tells </font>
It woke me up to a whole new side of the game.
For dealing with typical low limit games
<font color="red">Small stakes hold 'em </font>by Miller/Sklansky/Malmuth was helpful for me.

2.Watch the other players react to their hole cards before you look at yours. This is a little tough to do in early position, but thats when its most important. Don't be afraid to take an extra second. Most people are too busy thinking about their cards to notice the pause.
If I'm in early postion and I see half of the table poised to muck, or if it looks like someone is getting ready to raise, I know I can muck 67s or a small pair. It is hard to trust that you are reading these signals right, but with time you will become more accurate (especially if you are playing with a regular crowd). If I am sure that someone after me is going to raise, I throw away hands that I wouldn't cold call with, or limp with monsters planning to backraise.
Try to get a seat where you have a good view of everyone.

3.I've also found it extremely helpful to watch the players react to the flop/turn/river before I look at the cards myself. Usually you will get a glimpse of how it really hit them before they start acting or putting on a poker face. Even when I'm not in the hand, it's a game I play with myself to stay focused and learn about who I'm up against. I can sometimes tell when someone flopped a monster, or if their draw came in before looking at the actual cards. Its fun and you'll get good at it soon.

If you start zoning out after a few hours of J2o, 39s, K4o's, let yourself walk around for while.

Its also important to watch out for human error. I saw a player lose a whole pot because when he turned his cards over for the show down, one of his cards slid and touched the community cards making it a dead hand. Check the rules for casino you are playing at for technicalities like that.
Also mke sure you put something heavy on top of your cards if you are sitting next to the dealer. I've had good hands accidentally mucked or exposed. I hope I'm not insulting you- this is just stuff I wasn't aware of when I started that cost me money.

I wish you the best of luck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just be patient with yourself. Also, the live game you played in is probably a lot swingier than internet games. 4 losing sessions isn't bad. One of the best players I know from around here made $71,000 last year playing 15/30 has been running bad for 5 months. Sometimes it happens. Your good play will catch up with you eventually.
It sucks not being able to limit the field. I always say jokingly "Its not just a raise but an invitation to chase me down! Come get me guys!" Everyone at the table thinks its funny and I try to laugh with them.
As for the suck outs, I wish you many re-suck outs. Like counterfeiting someones lousy two pair when you have aces.

Good luck [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Nicole

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Obviously your four live sessions is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. You cannot make any conclusions whatsoever based on so few sessions.

There is no real excuse for doing WORSE playing live than you do online, if you take things on a hand-for-hand basis. Obviously things go faster online, but there is SO much more information available to you live, you simply cannot ignore it. I personally do MUCH better playing live than I ever did online, even though I can beat both.

If the games in live cardrooms are considerably looser than online, then you obviously need to employ strategies more suited for loose games. I suggest that you are having significant troubles adjusting from one game type to another. If you haven't read it yet, Psychology of Poker by Al Schoonmaker should be the next book on your reading list.

The no limit games you are discussing are a no limit player's DREAM. You SHOULD be salivating like Pavlov's dog when you see these crazy games. However, the adjustments are CONSIDERABLE. I basically NEVER make a "standard" raise of 4x the BB when playing live, unless I am fishing for a reraise with a big pair. I suggest that when playing live, you bet approximately the pot (or perhaps more) when you raise it up preflop. Do the same when you flop good. You will often get calls anyway, this is true. But they will have made a FAR more significant mistake when they call a LARGE preflop raise or flop bet. These mistakes add up quickly. If you just make it $8 in a 1-2 blinds game, and get six callers, then let one of them bust you when you flop top pair, well they got all the implied odds they needed to call your preflop raise, didn't they?

You need to make damn sure that they are not only not getting POT odds, but they aren't getting the necessary IMPLIED odds to call your bets and raises. Typically I raise it to anything from $15 to $20 preflop if I am making a "standard raise." Sometimes I might make it a LOT more, particularly if there are many limpers. Adjust your tactics, as this is probably a significant leak for you in live play, you are stuck in the internet frame of mind. The terrible live game players must be given a chance to make BIG mistakes, not little ones. Save the small ones for LIMIT play, not no-limit.

Accept the fact that pots and big hands that stand up are further between when playing live. You get fewer hands, and you must be more patient.

USE the large amount of additional information you gain in live play. I am going to guess that your people reading skills are poor because you haven't honed them while playing on the internet. People give away LOTS of information, particularly the terrible players that you seem to be having trouble with. TELEGRAPHS, particularly reliable ones, are worth a FORTUNE in live games.

check out this recent post of mine for info on how valuable telegraphs can be...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14&amp;fpart=1

Tells have some value too, but not to the same degree, because they are rarely all that reliable, and are often hard to identify.

In limit games, particularly loose aggressive ones, your only real method of winning is to get the maximum value out of your best hands. Bluffing, semi-bluffing and all those fancy plays are quite useless when there are typically seven to the flop in a raised pot, and four left on the river. Your only real plays are value bets and raises. If the game is super-loose, you must adjust, play more big draws, pairs, and not place so much value on top pair hands. YOUR VARIANCE GOES UP IN VERY LOOSE AND AGGRESSIVE GAMES. The adjustments for this type of game are discussed in several books, probably the best of which is small stakes hold'em by miller.

hope this helps.

al

[Kripke]

Thanks again for the responses. They are not only helpfull but reassuring. I will definitely try to adjust better and be more attentive to the fact that the players at my table are now living creatures. I do think I have tried, but obviously it takes practice.

As for your recommendations of books. I have read SSH a couple of times, but I'm rereading it as we speak. I also have the psychology of poker lying around but never got round to reading it. Next on my list.

I'll be going to Vegas next week and probably get to play some NL there. We'll see how that goes.

Regards,
Kripke