100-200 Hand

[HiatusOver]

"it's not worth putting in 2 bbs on the flop to find out youre drawing thin and then stop drawing."

Well said, but then again it doesnt make sense. The flop check-raise is usually how I handle the flop in this situation. This is a better than average flop for me and with that flop and the action up until my initial flop check-raise I am ahead more often that not. The only real question after we agree that the flop check-raise could easily be correct is if I should cap the flop or not. So we arent talking about 2 big bets we are talking about one small bet, quite a difference. Usually I don't cap the flop there, I usually call and then play the rest of the hand passively, losing turn and river bets when I am beat and missing out on them when I am ahead and never ever ever having a chance to fold a winner. but this time I decided to cap and it kinda felt correct when I did it, it might not be correct...but it seems close and probably at the very least an inexpensive way to vary your play and image.

[HiatusOver]

Gabe do you really think check-call, check-call, check-call is how a tough as nails high limit expert hold em player who crushes the games would play this hand? It might be, but I am not so sure

[HiatusOver]

"he could have AK for instance. that would not be an unreasonable hand to raise the turn with even after you cap it on the flop. same for AA obviously. and maybe even KQ depending on what he thinks of you. or even less."

Mike I said that there is probably a 30-40 percent chance that I am drawing dead...I think that is more than enough of a chance to make the turn call wrong after he raises me. The opposite of this is that there is a 60-70 percent chance that I am not drawing dead, so obviously I took into account all of those possible hands you just listed. You took up all that space but you didnt say anything new.

By the way there is a great chance that you are right and this line is definite chip spewing and not even close to correct, but I dont think you have come close to giving an actual good reason for it or a definte better line.

How about check-call and bet a turn blank? Problem with this is that I don't think I can fold the turn this time because I wont really know that I am behind

[mike l.]

"You took up all that space but you didnt say anything new."

okay.

"How about check-call and bet a turn blank?"

sure. what i was saying was i think the way you played it may have been one of the worst ways to play it. youre overemphasising information and not thinking about the power of the check-call in these scenarios. at least some of the time.

"Problem with this is that I don't think I can fold the turn this time"

from the range of flop 3 bet hands you listed for your opponent i dont think you can fold at any point in this hand. hence gabe's reply.

ive played against some pretty tough higher limit players lately who use check-call as one of their strongest weapons. i guess there's not much more for me to add to that. online is out of my realm as it is. you guys would eat me alive at 100-200 online 6 handed.

oh there's one more thing: you said you may be 30-40% drawing dead if he raises you on the turn, but then you reraise him when you make tens up, when that 8 didnt really change the chance you were drawing dead. so if he 4 bets you on the turn are you folding? what you said about being raised on the turn vs. what you did on the turn when you hit your hand seem like a contradiction. the correct play would seem to be to call the turn and then bet the river (and call a raise), but not to let yourself get trapped for 5 bets on this hand. 4 bets seems okay, but 5 would suck. what say you?

[HiatusOver]

"from the range of flop 3 bet hands you listed for your opponent i dont think you can fold at any point in this hand. hence gabe's reply."

The range of hands sharply narrows when I cap the flop and lead the turn and he still decides to raise me.

[mike l.]

"The range of hands sharply narrows when I cap the flop and lead the turn and he still decides to raise me."

well there you go then, i guess you played it perfectly.

seriously, i understood it all along, i understand the overplay for info thing. i use it against relatively weak predictable players pretty often and it's very reliable. against tricky aggros i just dont have the sac for it, theyre making a move too often, i just like to pay them off, but im willing to believe you may have found a better way on this hand. ill think about it. here ill post a hand i played the other day where i pussed out and paid off in a scenario where it seemed like i was beat. it's different but maybe you can give me some advice this time. it'll be above called KQ 200-400

[Ikke]

[ QUOTE ]
what you said about being raised on the turn vs. what you did on the turn when you hit your hand seem like a contradiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necesarrily. If he wouldnt have improved on the turn, a fold to a raise would have been correct if (neglecting implied odds) there is a greater than 8% chance he's drawing dead. Well, let's say with implied odds this would be around 10-15% (I don't believe your implied odds are that big, but let's not focus on that). So, in this case he would be correct to fold if he didn't improve.

But now he DID improve. His opponent's raise still means a 10-15% chance he's behind. But a ~85% he's ahead. So that's a clear raise for value.

If Hiatus says that he's more likely as 40% drawing dead, this would obviously strengthen your point. But I was just trying to show that his move is not necessarily logically incorrect.

As for the overall hand, I like mike l's responses. You overplayed this one IMO.

Regards

[mike l.]

"If Hiatus says that he's more likely as 40% drawing dead, this would obviously strengthen your point."

that's what hiatus said, it seemed a little high to me, but i was just going on that figure.

"As for the overall hand, I like mike l's responses. You overplayed this one IMO."

id be lying if i said i didnt pretty much feel like god after reading this. i think i get a little too wrapped up in posting on here.

[HiatusOver]

I think I could fold to a turn 4-bet because I would also have to face a river bet...I dont think I can win the pot every 6 or so times once he 4-bets so yes Mike I fold to a turn 4-bet. Wow, this line is pretty insane and razor thin all the way...but I am still not sure I don't like it. Again I rarely if ever play a hand in this way, but I went for it in this hand and it seemed ok.

THEN AGAIN, I thought of a new reason this morning why my line might suck. If I bet the turn and he just calls with the AK, then I am probably paying off the freaking river now which means I put in way too much money.

[HiatusOver]

Ikke could you possibly offer up a different line? I mean I certainly didnt post this hand to show off how good I play, I could have easily sucked but my main reason for thinking it might not suck is because every line I can think of in this hand seems like it sucks a little. Its a tough hand to master IMO.

SO, if anyone could offer up some suggested lines here I would love for the discussion to move that way.