Blind Stealing Thoughts (Min-Raising or Pushing Short Handed...)

[Jman28]

It's been said numerous times on this forum that when you're under 10x BB you're in push or fold mode.

I think that it is much more case specific, and sometimes a smaller raise is correct.

I understand the reaasoning behind the push or fold strategy, but I'd like to bring it back up for debate.

The main reason I think there is this disagreement is because of levels played at. At lower levels, the all-in play loses some (a lot) of its folding equity. In addition, at the lower levels you are less likely to get played back at on a min-raise unless they have a great hand.

While low level players understand that survival is important, they usually don't understand the advantage players get in $EV when they just sit back and watch others go all in (shown in TPFAP). They'll call all-ins with A5o when the raise is 8X BB.

I also think that with a medium stack, it's better to min-raise when a big stack is in the SB and a small stack is in the BB, that way you can call the small stack's push and fold to the big stack's.

I think we need to discuss proper blind stealing strategy for lower level SnGs because I'm thinking that while aggression is still very important, you need to be much more careful.

(also I don't like to min-raise... I prefer to raise just over the min.)

Thoughts?

-Jman28

[jrm]

What do you have to gain by min-raising? Let's say you min-raise on the button. The big blind is getting 3.5:1 odds to call. Anyone that would call your push will definitely call your min-raise. I think a lot of players that wouldn't have called your push will now call you since they're getting good odds and they don't have to risk all (or most of) their chips to do it.

What happens when they come over the top of you? You suggested that min-raising helps since you can get away from the hand, but what are you left with? Since you're already short-stacked, a min-raise costs at least 20% of your chips. If you fold, you're just going to dig yourself into a deeper hole, giving you even less fold equity.

If you're trying to steal the blinds, you don't want to get called. The smaller your raise, the more likely you are to be called.

[Jman28]

Yeah, I know you don't want to be called. I also pointed out that I don't actually min-raise. I'm suggesting a min-raise + 25-50 chips.

With the BB at 100, I'd raise to 225. A lot of people will fold to this despite the odds because I am putting their stack at risk if they want to see this hand through, and doing so without committing all of mine. (Pot-Limit & No Limit Poker by Reuben and Ciaffone, pg. 63-64)

In addition, when you are called and checked to, you will usually take the pot on a 1/2 pot bluff. You'd probably still take it if you lead out from the SB.

There are definitely cases where this strategy is better than pushing because of the $EV you give up when called on an all in, even as a slight favorite.

-Jman28

[adanthar]

Hands that I, as a medium to big stacked BB, will call to see a flop with to a minraise or 2.5 raise that would have folded to a push:

-Any low pair
-Most big Broadways, especially suited
-Occasional suited connectors (JTs-98s) if I feel the minraise is an any ace, any king type of hand

Things I will raise all in with when I sense weakness that I would probably fold to an all in:
-Sometimes AQ (sometimes I call anyway), occasionally AJ
-88-TT

This is why 10xBB=push is a very good rule.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
Hands that I, as a medium to big stacked BB, will call to see a flop with to a minraise or 2.5 raise that would have folded to a push:

-Any low pair
-Most big Broadways, especially suited
-Occasional suited connectors (JTs-98s) if I feel the minraise is an any ace, any king type of hand

Things I will raise all in with when I sense weakness that I would probably fold to an all in:
-Sometimes AQ (sometimes I call anyway), occasionally AJ
-88-TT

This is why 10xBB=push is a very good rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, here's where we're looking at different things. I'm called on pushes all the time by 22+, Axo, K6o+, QTo+, JTo+ in the 30+3 SnGs on Party.

That's what's causing our difference of opinion I think.

I also have a lot of success stealing pots on the flop.

I haven't tried this smaller raise strategy in a while, but I've been noticing that my pushes are getting called way too much and I'm looking to see if there's a better way to go about this.

-Jman28

[Dallara]

I've been finding (in the 22 SNGs) the same problem, that lots of people seem willing to call my 8-10x BB raise with these hands. My own data-free analysis of this is that many people interpret a push rather than a 3x raise as a sign that you're bluffing. They think you don't want to be called (which is sort of true). I also notice that the guys that bluff often are the ones that think every all-in move is a bluff and will call with anything.

I'm inclined to stay with the pushing strategy regardless of this problem, but I'm not sure this is best at this level. I do know that I HATE it on the few occassions where I 3x raise late with something like AQ, get called, and then miss the flop.

[AA suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been finding (in the 22 SNGs) the same problem, that lots of people seem willing to call my 8-10x BB raise with these hands. My own data-free analysis of this is that many people interpret a push rather than a 3x raise as a sign that you're bluffing. They think you don't want to be called (which is sort of true). I also notice that the guys that bluff often are the ones that think every all-in move is a bluff and will call with anything.

I'm inclined to stay with the pushing strategy regardless of this problem, but I'm not sure this is best at this level. I do know that I HATE it on the few occassions where I 3x raise late with something like AQ, get called, and then miss the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

guys that bluff often dont usually last to 100/200 blinds. most of the time i'm on the bubble at that stage. only the sane, logical players are left, most of the time at $30+3.

if i'm shortstacked at that stage, i push w/decent cards. most of the time i only get called w/good cards. the only exception is if the bb = big stack. he might just call w/semi-decent cards.