Need help beating these guys

[-Spike-]

Ok..first a disclaimer.

I'm playing party 2/4 bad beat tables (on the very rare chance that I could get one), but I have been doing decently.

My problem is not about my table selection (most of the time), but that these loose passive players just can't seem to be beat.

I'm generally playing with a SSH style, so I'm waiting paitently for decent hands. But these LP folks just call with anything and I think I win 1 of 4 times I get a decent hand.

I know this should be higher.

What advice can some of the highly profitable folks give me to help me better my win rate against these LP folks?

[Grease]

Perhaps posting some specific hands would be easier to evaluate, because loose passive people are definitely the most beatable.

[thirddan]

post hands here or in micro...also your results may the result of a small sample size...

[jordanx]

A lot of people will tell you that this is an ideal game and that you are not winning here because you suck.

While that may be partially true, the problem is your statement is so broad that it is virtually non-sensical:

Most players are loose-passive. Within that group, some players are much better than others. Loose passive can range from playing any two and calling down to the river to seeing lots of flops but only calling down to the river with good hands or good draws.

The latter is the more difficult opponent because your tight aggressiveness will bet and raise them into submission and leave you scratching your head when your TPTK is beat on the river by a flush -- and you were never raised.

Ultimately, either is good for you, although you will make less money off a selective loose passive, you will also lose less money than vs. a LAG, who will be capping his flush draw on the turn heads-up.

An autopsy of a winning session will usually reveal that the difference between winning and loosing was one or two critical decisions, combined with standard EV+ moves (value betting the river, pumping your flush draw correctly, protecting your hand with raises).

A critical decision is usually calling a river bet when you "know" you are beaten and taking down a medium to large pot. Or playing a marginal dominated hand (KJo) vs. a raise pre-flop to get trapped into showing down a second best hand.

Your win rate per decent hand is highly subjective to what your pre-flop requirements are. Do you limp w/ QJo in early position? Do you call a raise w/ KJo? Do you open-raise ATs from middle position? These are retorical questions that a lot of poker players will give different answers to.

My advice is to read more books, keep track of your poker stats, analyze your sessions and post questionable hands.

[The Goober]

[ QUOTE ]
But these LP folks just call with anything and I think I win 1 of 4 times I get a decent hand.

I know this should be higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make any sense. Why should you be winning more - are you folding winners or letting other players suck out when you could have bet them out of the pot? If your opponents are really that loose/passive, then neither or those should be true. If you've just been unlucky, then obviously no advice we can give will help you there.

It doesn't matter what percentage of your hands you win, it how much money you make with them. In fact, 25% strikes me as quite high, not low. In a super loose-passive game with very little raising, you should be seeing the flop with a lot of 'decent' hands and mucking if you don't pick up a big hand or big draw. I would think you would probably win with less than 10% of the hands that you play.

I'm really just guessing - anybody with a big PT database wanna actually calculate this number?

[smoore]

don't have a big PT database, but when the 1/2 party game is a grind (i.e. winning at a slow pace). I'm seeing ~15-20% of flops, winning 10% of total hands and winning ~25% of hands where I've seen the flop.

edit: btw, when this is happening I'm folding things like QJo early, playing them late, raising things like ATs and better and playing all pocket pairs in all positions unraised. Not exactly tight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[duk]

He says he wins 1 of 4 times he gets a decent hand. This doesn't seem unreasonable at the low limits, as there are more people staying in too long. Over 20,000 $.5-1 hands I won about 26% of the time when I saw the flop. Over 40,000 $2-4 hands, it was more like 29%. So far at $3-6, I'm up around 33%. I imagine this is due to fewer people hanging as the levels go up.

While I am winning a higher percentage of hands which I take to the flop, my win rate has slightly declined with each level. This is because, as we all know, more chumps hanging around when they shouldn't be makes you money.

To sum up, more chumps in the pot means you win fewer pots, but win more money. 1 in 4 isn't bad, as long as you're "doing decently." Just keep winning, and remember that people winning when they "shouldn't" makes you money in the long run.

[-Spike-]

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

QJo in EP is a fold.
ATs in MP I raise most of the time.
QJo in LP is a call.

I fold almost all offsuit hands in any pos to a raise.

I play almost all pairs in any pos unless there is a raise,

I play mostly tight. I'm classified in my PT db as sLA-A. Alot of this has to do with how I was playing a few months ago and I have tightened up alot. I'm still sLA-A though.

My average VP$IP for a night is between 16-23, with a PFR of 5-9. Depending on the hands I get. Some nights, I just don't get many good cards.

I've had quite a bit of up and downs, but overall, I'm over 1k in profit. When I get 1200 in profit, I'm moving to the 3/6.

As for specific hands, I don't have my PT db with me at work, but I could try to post a hand or so another time.

btw: I have about 18.5k hands in PT. But again, the first 7k or so I was playing a bit looser and have tightened up since.

I'll post my vpip and pfr ranges and # of hands for this month (nov) when I get the chance.

Other than that, I do thank you all for your info. Be it positive or negative, it's all good.

[Kyle]

Sorry guys this is a little off topic, but is the rake higher at these bad beat tables?

Kyle

[tewall]

If the game is really loose-passive, you might do better by playing more hands. If you can't beat them, join them. If lots of people are seeing flops, and you're not likely to be raised, a lot of hands become profitable from any position (like Kx suited, 89 suited).