A few more hands from my mistake filled tournies today..

[Munkster]

Hand 1:
15/30 blinds
I have 1200 in chips, table chip leader with 2700 on big blind, another guy with 900 in MP.

I am dealt QQ on the button, 4 limpers ahead of me, I call also (Mistake?), big blind (chip leader, LAG) raised to 250, 2 fold, the MP guy with 900 chips reraises all in, folds to me, I fold also (I think this is correct, or am I being too cautious?)

Outcome, big blind had AK, reraiser had JJ, Q came on the flop, no A or K, reraiser doubles up.

Hand 2:
assume avg stack of 1000 and blinds 10/20 for this one

I am small blind, dealt KK, one early limper, all folds to me, I call (Mistake? HOw much should I raise?). flops AJT, I bet 70, he calls, I check on the turn (rag falls), he bets 100, I fold.

Hand 3:
I am slightly short stacked with 700, blinds 10/20, player X has me covered with 900.

I am AQ small blind. All folds to c/o player x who raises to 60, I reraise to 200 (mistake? I was trying to get more info). flop comes TT8, I know I should bet but I don't know how much, I check, he bets all in, I fold.


Any critism will be appreciated..
The end of the day result is I went out on three separate tournies, total buyin $88... I really have a lot to learn in tournament poker...
Good thing I am making all these tournament buy-ins up with ring games.

[ZBTHorton]

#1. Yes you raise. I raise to 100 or 120. Whatever you feel like is going to get rid of some of those limpers.

After that, I think it's up to you. I don't think either player is going away from your raise, so your decision on the all-in is inevitable. It's really your decision. If you feel comfortable taking this kind of chance to triple up, your getting 3:1 + limpers...

#2. Yes you raise. I'd raise to 60 or 80. If you raise, HOPEFULLY you have eliminated your A8,A7,A6 type hands. It is still early though, so you never know.

As far as your betting. If your going to fire a bullet on the flop, you've got to fire on the turn. If he calls you again, then maybe you check...He shouldn't call your turn bet on a draw, or a J or 10. So if he calls..you're beat. Remember it's still early.

#3. I don't re-raise. AQos is simply not that strong. By re-raising you gave him enough money in the pot to justify his push all-in....If he still makes the bet, you still got to fold.

[trumpman84]

I don't know if you are slow playing your pairs by just calling and not raising them, or playing them scared?

If it is the former, you can never slow play big pairs against multiple limpers. You should raise and try to get it heads up or at the very least 3 way. The first hand I raise to 3x the big blind + 1x for each limper = around 6-7x. After that, the hand would play out very differently. The early position short stack might still go all in. I would call this..some people might fold. I call because I'm happy to go out with queens and there is only 2 hands I really dont want to see and only one I'm at a coin flip with.


Hand #2 -- again I make my standard raise preflop about 3-4x preflop. Since you didn't raise pre-flop, early position could sense weakness when you checked and thinks his pair of jacks, or tens are good. He could also have a pair aces, you just hvae no idea what he has at this point.

Hand #3 Now you seem to be getting aggressive, but with the wrong hands imo. I wouldn't reraise with AQo unless you are fairly certain it's the best hand based on a read of the player. Since, you did raise preflop, I would definetly lead out the flop with a bet to see what he does. He might fold, but again, since you checked, he couldve sensed weakness and stolen the 450 pot.

In conclusion,

Always raise your big pairs and don't play so timid after the flop.

[Harv72b]

This is so much like my initial tournament experience that it's scary.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:
15/30 blinds
I have 1200 in chips, table chip leader with 2700 on big blind, another guy with 900 in MP.

I am dealt QQ on the button, 4 limpers ahead of me, I call also (Mistake?), big blind (chip leader, LAG) raised to 250, 2 fold, the MP guy with 900 chips reraises all in, folds to me, I fold also (I think this is correct, or am I being too cautious?)

Outcome, big blind had AK, reraiser had JJ, Q came on the flop, no A or K, reraiser doubles up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to raise QQ with only limpers in front of you, at least 4xBB here. You're probably not going to scare off an AK, but that will get rid of just about any other ace- or king-high hand.

Once you limped and the rest of it went down, I would've re-raised MP to all in. I'm not worried very much about a LAG who raised to 8+xBB (that screams blind steal to me), nor about a short-stacked limp/raiser. As I've said before, I'm not a big fan of Hellmuth's book, but he does make a few very good points in it, one of them being that you are by definition going to lose far more tournaments than you win. There's no disgrace in losing with a great hand, and QQ preflop is exactly that.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2:
assume avg stack of 1000 and blinds 10/20 for this one

I am small blind, dealt KK, one early limper, all folds to me, I call (Mistake? HOw much should I raise?). flops AJT, I bet 70, he calls, I check on the turn (rag falls), he bets 100, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, raise those kings. But failing that, you did good to push out that bet PF, but I don't think you used the info that you gleaned from doing so. He called your bet (no raise), with a possible nut straight showing on the board. If he had the straight, he would've raised in a heads up situation. If he had the ace paired with a strong kicker/two pairs, he would also have raised IMO. When you checked the turn, you showed him that you weren't comfortable with your hand, and allowed him to throw out a bet & take it from you. I would've bet out stronger on the turn and seen what happened--it's very possible that he had a smaller pocket pair & felt like T70 was worth it to take one more shot at the set. It also may be that he caught the set on the turn, but hey...

[ QUOTE ]

I am slightly short stacked with 700, blinds 10/20, player X has me covered with 900.

I am AQ small blind. All folds to c/o player x who raises to 60, I reraise to 200 (mistake? I was trying to get more info). flop comes TT8, I know I should bet but I don't know how much, I check, he bets all in, I fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

This one's a bit tougher, and to be honest, I don't know what I would have done much differently. I would also have re-raised preflop, although less than 200 (120 maybe). However, when he called that reraise I would've put him on pockets, and also checked when I missed the flop, and definitely folded to his all in. Live to fight another day.

All this being said, I'd hardly consider myself an expert on tournament/NL play, so please feel free to disregard my advice if someone more experienced tells you otherwise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[bugstud]

Here is a simple question. Why are you reraising AQo and calling with QQ and KK?

You need to play your big pairs like it's a big pair, especially on the button.

Some more experience should reinforce this for you.

[Munkster]

Thanks for all the replies coming in.. I have been reading up quite a bit on NL MTT play but having really no experience under my belt. While I was reading, I got confused with some of the messages, I usually always raise before the flop with QQ, but after reading supersystem, it seemed to make my QQ worth less (I know he was wrting about ring games). I will play them alot more aggressively now on. With the Post flop play, I guess I really have to stick with being aggressive (much like shorthanded ring game play), I am being too timid, too afraid. It's best to learn with mistakes, and I am definitely doing that.

One of the most diffcult things I find with this is how much to raise, many times I find myself not knowing how much to raise when I know I should be and then ending up calling (I should slap myself every time I make such a weak play). The reasons for me to sometimes limp with big PP is for the deception value, I guess I value that too much and I must change.

Thanks again for the replies and keep them coming if you have suggestions/critisms or if you can point me to a good thread to read on MTT NL poker. I viwed maybe the top 60 threads ranked by views already.

[kuro]

My play is far from perfect, but here is where I'm at strategywise for mtt after reading multiple books and playing probably 100 tournaments.

Hands I limp with:
Axs, Kxs, small pairs (typically 7s or lower for me), suited connectors.

If blinds are large then I generally fold those hands unless I'm in late position with multiple callers or i'm in the blinds.

Hands I enter the pot with a raise with:
Pretty much anything else than I'm willing to play is going to come in for a standard raise of 3-5x bb + 1xbb for each limper. The strength requirement of hands that I'd bring in for a standard raise is going to change based on my position, my relative stack size, table conditions, etc. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,TT are pretty automatic standard raises. AQ-A10,KQ-KT,99,88 come in for a raise based on my position. Rarely I'll bring in any of the drawing hands I mentioned above for a raise on a blind steal or maybe with the intention to fold and show for table image purposes. My goal is to drive out marginal hands so that I know where I stand when I see the flop. I don't change the ammount of the raise with the strength of the hand. If I'm at a table where half the table will call my standard raise everytime then I'll try increasing the size of my standard raise somewhat to see if that helps.

As far as entering a raised pot goes... I try to use my best judgement about what range of hands I might be facing. Generally you need a better hand to call a raised pot than you would need to enter the pot itself (the so called Gap Concept). If multiple people call the raise then you're going to usually have pot odds to play with the same hands you would open the pot for and if enough people call the hands you'd limp with may be worth playing. If someone that never bets preflop opens with a big bet then you're probably looking at a big pair or AK. Generally, if I'm not willing to reraise them then I really don't have much business calling because if my hand misses and they push or even if I hit and they push I'm going to be stuck not really knowing if I'm ahead or behind. As far as how much to reraise goes, I'm going to have to bet at least the pot to have a chance at pushing them out and winning it preflop.

When the blinds get big relative to my stack things change. If the ammount I'm going to reraise is going to make me pot committed (or if I think they are already pot committed), I'm probably going to go all in now or fold or call and raise all in if I hit the flop depending on my read. If it's a really big stack compared to me, I'm probably going to reraise all in or fold based on my read. If we both miss the flop (i.e. flop is all unders against tight player not in the blinds ), I like to be left with enough money that I can bet the pot on both the flop and the turn or I'm probably going to push all in with overcards on the flop or I'm going to check/fold or check/call minimum bets depending on my read of the hands I'm against and the chance that they'll fold.

If I'm short stacked and blinds are big, i'm pretty much in all in or fold mode and am not entering a raised pot unless I have a really good read. If I'm the big stack, I'm maybe a bit looser with the hands that I'll enter the pot with a raise or reraise with if I think I can use my stack to bully them. Remember though that you can't bluff a calling station.

Mid-Late in the tourney, if I'm in late position and I have A8 or 77s or better I'm always raising 3x bb into an unopened pot with the hopes of stealing the blinds. I'm I've been caught with a less than stellar hand stealing then the next time I try my starting hand is going to be considerably better. If they always fold then maybe I do the same play with lesser hand.

Anyway this is a general overview of how I bet preflop. Postflop I generally don't get fancy and so I bet the pot when I think I have it to shut out the draws after the flop. If I'm semi-bluffing then I bet the pot as well. Sometimes I wait until the turn if the flop looks harmless or check the flop and then raise the pot when a scare card comes depending on what hand I put them on. If I have a monster hand on the flop then I probably check/call it or min bet it trying to get more into the pot or intice an aggresive player to bet into me or maybe I overbet it if it looks like I've been buying lots of pots. You have to mix things up somewhat or people will put you on a hand too easily. Generally though I don't do much raising on the river unless its a small raise that I'm hoping will get called to add a little more into a pot that I've almost certainly won. Certainly, I'm not reraising on the river unless I'm almost certainly a lock. Similarly, I'm extremely hesitant to fold on the river to a small to moderate raise unless I'm pretty sure I'm beat. If others see me call, they're less likely to try to bluff me out of later pots and with the ammount of money already in the pot it's almost always worth it to call a small/moderate raise on the river.

I try to classify people as loose-agressive, tight-aggressive, loose-passive, tight-passive and adjust my play accordingly. Similarly, I try to see who slow plays, who bluffs constantly, who is a calling station, how do the loose players play when they catch 2 pair, or a straight with junk. I keep asking myself what do I look like to other people and keep asking myself if I need to show some cards if I'm winning lots of preflops or flops and my credibility is going down.

My game certainly needs work but this is where I've progressed to after being where you are.

[gergery]

Hand 1: You must raise on button with 4 limpers. After you check, a BB raising a bunch of limpers does not have to have a very strong hand. Assuming the MP limped after 1-2 others limped, then I would not put him on AA/KK, most likely is 88-JJ. So I’d have pushed over MP’s push expecting to have him crushed and not worried too much about BB – he needs to have AA/KK very often for this to be bad with you getting over 2:1 on your money here.

Hand 2: I would raise to ~120 preflop and have bet out on that flop. This early its very likely a limper will call that bet, so you are forgoing an opportunity to get chips in while ahead, and you don’t know where you are now. Once you just called preflop, he is not likely to put you on an A. So its easy for him to try and steal the pot from you and you could have folded the best hand.

Hand 3: I would have just called preflop. I don’t want to play a big pot with AQ out of position. Then I’d have bet out on the flop. Trying to raise him preflop is ok, but risky as he must risk 140 on a call to win 280. So he’s getting 2:1 odds and more implied odds, and has position. So its player dependent but unless he’s stealing with total rags I’d expect a call a fair amount of the time. And if an A hits, then you’re not likely to get a lot more out of him so you have reverse implied odds (unless he has a weaker A, in which case just calling preflop better disguises your hand anyway).

--Greg