Using "Player Notes" effectively.

[Pepsquad]

I'd like to know what type of player notes people keep. In my micro-limit ring games some of my examples might be
"limped UTG w/ 96o" or "Raised MP with any ace 3 times in a row".
Fast-foreward an hour into my online play and now I have notes on pretty much all of my opponents that they can have trash at any given moment. ALl well and good.
Problem is, that doesn't really help me make my current decision. Just because they've shown the propensity to limp with trash doesn't mean that's what they're doing this particular hand. These little notes of mine have caused me to check/call marginal situations and get burned.

So my questions really are:
What are some examples of your player notes?
Do you even use them in micro-limit play?

Maybe I'm just noting the wrong things. Should I be more focused on betting patterns/intervals?

I'm lost and it's losing me money - please help.

[RED_RAIN]

Get PokerTracker...use the note exporter

VP$IP
PFR
Aggression Total
WSD
W$SD
W$SD-BR
Fold-SB (less important at micro)
Fold-BB (less important at micro)
Fold-BB-HU (not important at micro limit)
Check/Raise %
Hands Raised w/

Yes, I used them at microlimits, yes they beat hand written notes.

[MisterNatural]

There's a few popular posts about this if you search around. One is by bisonbison and I saw it brought up a couple of days ago.

I've been doing the same as you, but I also add what the players raises mean.
For example I might write "re-raise on the the flop was just top pair 9 kicker with K9o played from utg", or "lead with trips" or "check raise on the turn is flopped 2 pair" I use my own short hand though. I focus on what hands they are playing and in what position and how far they go - shows down pocket 3's with no help in a reraise war. I might just write raised preflop but doesn't bet if he misses. It might be just what i've seen them show down: 2 pair, flopped set, had the trips when reraising the flop, boat, boat x 2. Lead with bottom pair. J7o in ep, leads into preflop raiser with garbage when a King is on the flop and goes to showdown with jack high. Gut shot hunter heads up. Limped with KK preflop, lead with the flopped set. Didn't re-raise AA preflop and never bet when rags fell. Caller, if she's in the hand she's got something good, if she raises you're beat.

Are they using moves that a studied player uses? Are they capable of a bluff, are they always nut peddling? Everyplayer I see gets atleast a mark so I know if they've seen me play .

I probably put too much work into the notes, but it's helped me get an idea of how a lot of people play and I can get reads on people a lot faster now. I put in the extra river bets if they are known callers, I let go of hands when I'm reraised by nut peddler joe, or the big pot hunter or the multitabler. I don't stay in rooms with three or four known tight players and no known fish.

Hope this helps.

[Wreck]

I personally take much more notes than I will ever use but my feelings are that it will pay off at higher limits if I can make it second nature at lower limits.

I start by focusing on raises and pre-flop raises (PR). Mostly PR is the easiest thing to notice and it gives a good insight into that players overall personality (PR: 66 for example - tells me instantly this player overplays pocket pairs). What else they PR with can help put players on particular hands later on. (If a player PR, and my notes say PR: KK, No PR: 99, AQo, I know I can narrow the range of hands. Alternatively, if my notes say PR: QJo, KTo - I don't need to be as fearful).

I also pay attention to what players raise with. Most passive players will not raise with less than 2p, so if I note that, I know to get out if they raise and I have HP. How they play flush draws, whether or not they check-raise, slowplay, or are apt to pot steal (PS) are also easy things to note: for example: "R: flopped set on turn", "calls down w/ MP - always value bet river", or "PSER - always call down".

Those are the easiest and first things I look at. Next I'll note what they bet with (MP, LP, any part of board) and what they play IF its noteworthy (p: K2o, J5 UTG, any 2 suited). Mostly what they play is helpful in case I see them later on, I know I'm at a table with a weak player.

[RED_RAIN]

I assume none of you 4 table, or have a database of over 10k players.

[bwana devil]

so you have written notes about every player indicating that they limp w/ bad hands? What does this tell? Nothing.

Playing a .5/1.00 table at party for instance, I assume everyone limps w/ bad hands. If they play aggressively I will write it. If they're a maniac, I'll write it. Other than that, I wouldn't spend too much time note taking how loosely a person plays. You'll never stop writing.

Determine the general quality of players you might expect to play and then note the exceptions to the guidelines.

[Pepsquad]

Thank you for your responses. I've already determined I need to buy Poker Tracker...NOW (reasons for the least of which is player notes, but it should help).
Bwana - you hit the nail on head. I'm CONSTANTLY writing and it's all the same stuff. I know one of the cardinal rules of Holdem is "Assume they are the best player in the world until proven otherwise" but this assumption at the lower limits is giving me carpal tunnel. From now on, I think I'm just going to note the actual TAG's I run into and leave it at that until I get PT. Thanks again for the responses.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I know one of the cardinal rules of Holdem is "Assume they are the best player in the world until proven otherwise" but this assumption at the lower limits is giving me carpal tunnel.

[/ QUOTE ]

In SSHE, Ed Miller writes about this. A brief quote says you should play opposite to that "cardinal rule" when playing in small stakes games.

SSHE:
"...assume the game is loose until proven otherwise"

That part of the book is basically talking about assuming opponents play badly until proven otherwise. Most of the time that is the case in small stakes games.

PT is a great tool for notes on players. Just keep in mind you'll need a fair number of hands on a player for the information it spits out to be relatively accurate.

Good luck [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Just because they've shown the propensity to limp with trash doesn't mean that's what they're doing this particular hand.

This is flawed thinking. Poker is a game of incomplete information, of probability not of certainty. What your notes tell you is that with certain opponents it is less likely that a certain action means a good hand. You'll never be certain, but when the odds are in your favor you must play aggressively.