10x BB all in rule modified?

[JasonDB]

Great response Lloyd. I think table position is what gave me the most pause about the way I played the hand and makes me rethink this "guideline".

[Lloyd]

I might be wrong but it sounds like you might be second guessing your decision to go all-in with AK. I don't know what others think but I would absolutely do the same thing. First of all, I'm playing to win and to do so I need to win some blinds and double up. If I bust out, oh well. The real money is made at the top and I want to get there. Secondly, you are only a dog if you are called and there is a good chance you won't be. People are playing very tight at this stage and you can easily win the blinds. And if you do get called, you're in a pretty good spot. You could have someone with a big stack call you with A/lower kicker or KQ. There are only two hands you don't want to see and I'd take my chance.

[M.B.E.]

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Pot odds are WAY overated on this forum when talking about no limit hold em tournaments. These things are about survival and building. Folding does in fact SAVE 1400 if you were on a steal and gives you a chance instead of playing a big pot as a dog (probably a huge one).

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When your stack is 10xBB you should hardly ever be "on a steal"; your raises should be with decent hands. If your stack is 2000 and blinds are 100/200 you can't afford to give away 600 on a mediocre hand that you have no intention of backing. If you actually have a decent hand like AQ or TT, you are letting your opponents walk all over you by folding to a raise after putting in 30% of your stack.

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2 to 1 means very little when its for all your chips and survival in the tourney.

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No, at most stages of the tournament pot odds are very important (assuming there is a typical prize structure, as opposed to a satellite). Your objective is not merely to make the money, and not even to make the final table. Your general objective is to make the top two or three positions, even if aiming for them means you are eliminated out of the money a little more often.

[rybones]

I agree with almost everything in your analysis, however it and almost everyone else makes the assumption that the caller of the 2 or 3 or 4xbb raise is going to be the big stack. In this case, you are right, you have no ability to push someone off with a bet on the flop. That said, you do have the ability to get out and still remain in the tournament. You will then kick yourself for not pushing. However, What if the caller is one of the stacks of similar size? then you can push after the flop? Additionally this fails to consider the fact that when the blinds get up over t2000 the min raise will often get everyone to fold. why risk all your chips when a small fraction will do the same job? I don't know exactly what I am saying except that I don't like the 10xbb RULE. I like the 10xbb guideline and that one should always consider other options. but hey that's me.

Ryan

[gergery]

You have to understand the reason the 10xBB guideline was established before you can know when not to follow it: it’s because raising some of your stack but not all your stack pot commits you, and if you’re committed you might as well put it all in to start with to ensure you have some folding equity.

Example: You raise 3xBB. Your opponent outstacks you and pushes. You now have 7xbb left in your stack, and can win 14BB (his 10+your 3 plus blinds 1.5). So you are getting 2:1 odds, which is the rough cutoff point for many matchups (AK vs. 86, JJ vs. A2).

So many of the good but not great hands that you might raise with, are hands that you will want to call with getting those odds, given a reasonable range of hands your opponent has.

--Greg

[gergery]

I love you guys, but respectfully, there’s a lot of bad advice in this thread.

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pushing gives up your ability to play each street

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If you raise 3xBB and are called, there’s 6.5bb in the pot and you have 7xbb left. There is little decision left to make, and you’re paying way too much for the priviledge.

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I almost never like to move in with AK there

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Easy all-in. You have correct odds (with the blind money in there) vs. any hand but AA/KK, and you’ll be called by worse hands sometimes, and you have fold equity. The blinds represent 15% of your stack, which is significant. There are no better hands which will come frequently enough to make waiting better.

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The only time I go all-in with medium PP, even JJ is when I’m desperate

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You’ll get blinded away. You’ll have 8.5xbb in two hands. Example:
With JJ chances you get a better hand within 2 orbits is 24%
With TT, chances of a better hand in 2 orbits is 30%
And there’s no guarantee of winning if you do hit. You also will continue to lose folding equity as your stack gets smaller.

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These things are about survival and building

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No, these things are about making money, and all the money is in the final few places. The typical Party tourney has 100x entry fee for first. You get 10x entry for 8th place. And 2x entry for just making the money. Winning once is better than surviving to 8th place nine times. You could win once and make more money than finishing just in the money 45 times. To get to the final 4 say, you need roughly 25% of the chips in play (give or take, on average). So your goal at this stage is to acquire chips in EV+ situations, period.

--Greg

[fnord_too]

I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if this approach has already been posted.

As the blinds get higher in relation to average stack size, I lower my standard raise. Eventually it gets to 2XBB and stays there (unless the blinds get so insanely large that it every hand played is played all in.) At 2BB, I will make a stadard raise down to about 6BB. There are exceptions, most notably when it is 4 handed or less and I am the short stack, but in general, I drop my push or fold threshold along with my standard raise.

[cferejohn]

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Pot odds are WAY overated on this forum when talking about no limit hold em tournaments. These things are about survival and building. Folding does in fact SAVE 1400 if you were on a steal and gives you a chance instead of playing a big pot as a dog (probably a huge one).

2 to 1 means very little when its for all your chips and survival in the tourney.

Peace

Goodie

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Amen.

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Hideously wrong. I refer you to Paul Phillips, Greg Raymer, Gus Hansen, and other top professionals who have either stated (Phillips and Raymer) or made it quite obvious through their play (Hansen) that they will take pretty much any +EV situation at any time.

When you are very close to the money, this changes a little. In a sit-n-go, it changes significantly more (since the payoff structure is very steep relative to a multi). In a super-sat, it can obviously change tremendously to the point where you can occasionally see a situation where it can be "correct" to fold AA in terms of cash expectation.

[stephensolo]

if im fearing turning my an AK into 72 by pushing pre-flop in this situation, i might limp in. if i get raised i push back, getting to double up against a wider range of hands. any raise short of all in is pretty pointless.