10x BB all in rule modified?

[M.B.E.]

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1) from early postition min raise with any hand you think is playable (i.e. not monsters, but stuff you might play with a larger stack, perhaps that is A,Q for some and for others it might include 2,2). My thought here is that with less than 10xbb people will think you are committed to the pot as they know you should have pushed all in. They will/may read your min raise as a monster hand that wants action. Thus they fold unless they actually have the moster? If you get re-raised decide to go for it or not based on your read of the other player. If you get a call, play if you hit the flop or have a good read on your opp.

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When your stack is 10xBB, pocket deuces should be folded preflop from any position (except sometimes in the blinds, or on the button if there is a very high chance the blinds will fold). If you think you can represent a monster by minraising, you're better off doing it with QT or 87, so that if you are called you will have some idea of whether the flop helped you or not. Also with AQ I would not minraise, because you'd just be giving up too much in (a) folding to a reraise when there is a decent chance you are ahead or not far behind, and (b) letting medium pocket pairs call you and then fold on the flop if an ace hits.

This play (minraising from EP when your stack is 10xBB) might be okay with a hand like A8 suited -- especially if you balance it by making the same play with QQ or KK.

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2) With playable hands in late postion (again, same criteria as above), raise 3xbb and hope to steal. If you get called play the same as above. Again, if you get re-raised decide to go for it or not based on your read of the other player. If you get a call, play if you hit the flop or have a good read on your opp.

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No, this is not a good play. Way too much of the time you end up just giving away 30% of your stack.

[rybones]

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When your stack is 10xBB, pocket deuces should be folded preflop from any position (except sometimes in the blinds, or on the button if there is a very high chance the blinds will fold). If you think you can represent a monster by minraising, you're better off doing it with QT or 87, so that if you are called you will have some idea of whether the flop helped you or not. Also with AQ I would not minraise, because you'd just be giving up too much in (a) folding to a reraise when there is a decent chance you are ahead or not far behind, and (b) letting medium pocket pairs call you and then fold on the flop if an ace hits.


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Great analysis!!! for me it confirms what I already thought to be true. The line is good as long as you choose what hands to do this with well and you have shown down good hands previously. That said, I would have had 2,2 thru 6,6 in my list of hands to do this with -- now they are off my list!

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No, this is not a good play. Way too much of the time you end up just giving away 30% of your stack.

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I really want to understand so don't take this question as sarcastic. Does your quote mean you only bet 3xbb with premium hands and you push with lower (though maybe still good) value hands? OR does it mean that you only push from late position because you want them to fold or figure you on a steal and call?

thanks for your analysis! comments from others also apreciated?

Ryan

[M.B.E.]

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I really want to understand so don't take this question as sarcastic. Does your quote mean you only bet 3xbb with premium hands and you push with lower (though maybe still good) value hands? OR does it mean that you only push from late position because you want them to fold or figure you on a steal and call?

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As a general rule, with 10xBB you shouldn't be playing much of anything, even in late position (unless for some reason the players behind you are much more likely to fold than usual). Most hands you do play, push, but with AA or KK (maybe QQ or AKs) raise smaller looking for a reraise. But if you think that would be too obvious, then mix it up a little bit -- again, only if your opponents are very alert.

[docknet]

10xBB in the situation you describe is not a desparate position. I've come all the way back to win from a lot less. The only time I go allin with small-to-medium PPs (even JJ) is when I'm desparate.

You had plenty of orbits left to catch something better.

[BradL]

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I think it's a good rule for the hourly rate players who are 4-8 tabling and using pure statistics, but if you are a single table player and paying closer attention, this rule will only hurt you.

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You are missing the point of the 10xBB guideline. Its not for the "hourly rate" players to maximize return, its simply that with 10xBB in your stack a raise to 3 BB gives up a 3rd of your stack and any bet on the flop will just about pot commit you. With 10xBB in you stack you are typically better off deciding if you want to go with your hand preflop and going with it hard, so that you dont find yourself stuck after the flop because you either missed or you let someone in too cheeply when you really could not afford to in the first place.

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The biggest reason for sticking with the 3-4xBB raise in your situation is to avoid giving that big stack a sort of "freeroll" against you... It also takes away your ability to play each street, so if you are a better postflop player, why give up that aspect of your game?

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If you have 10xBB in your stack and you raise 4xBB there is virtually no chance of betting a big stack caller off the flop with your remaining 6BB. Additionally you allow the big stack to feel that he may "take a shot at you" preflop and reraise you allin with a hand that he otherwise may have folded. That is precisely the reason why you would make a standard raise with a premium hand such as AA or KK and why you want to push with your slightly lesser hands.

If you are advocating raising 4xBB and then folding to a reraise preflop then you should not have been involved in the hand in the first place. If you think that after the flop you will be able to bet the big stack off his hand it is very unlikely. The best play is to push preflop because it not only allows you to see all streets but it prevents anyone from playing back at you without a hand they are willing to show down themselves.

Essentially when you push everyone at the table knows you are committed and there will be no opportunities for a better player to 'outplay' you on later streets. In the same sense it is highly unlikely that with your remaining stack you would be able to 'outplay' anyone on the flop or a later street, therefore a push is correct. I apologize if this post is long-winded.

-Brad

[Goodie54]

Pot odds are WAY overated on this forum when talking about no limit hold em tournaments. These things are about survival and building. Folding does in fact SAVE 1400 if you were on a steal and gives you a chance instead of playing a big pot as a dog (probably a huge one).

2 to 1 means very little when its for all your chips and survival in the tourney.

Peace

Goodie

[docknet]

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Pot odds are WAY overated on this forum when talking about no limit hold em tournaments. These things are about survival and building. Folding does in fact SAVE 1400 if you were on a steal and gives you a chance instead of playing a big pot as a dog (probably a huge one).

2 to 1 means very little when its for all your chips and survival in the tourney.

Peace

Goodie

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Amen.

[Lloyd]

I posted a similar question last week as this was giving me some trouble as well. The conclusion that I came to was that:

1) limping was not an option as it too easily invites a raise since you have shown weakness;

2) a normal raise of 3-4XBB will force you to make some tough decisions if you are raised pre-flop or if you miss the flop; it should only be used to entice people to call or re-raise when you have AA or KK;

3) leaving the only options as fold or push for the reasons others have suggested.

The modification I made was in my hand requirement for pushing. If mostly everyone is shortstacked (according to the 10xBB guideline), then mostly everyone is starting to get desperate. Let them act in desperation while you wait for a good hand to push with and move up in the money while doing so. I still strongly believe in playing aggressive poker, it's just that you really aren't desperate if you're in the same boat as mostly everyone else. Therefore, play aggressive, but play smart.

In your example, I would still probably push with AK. It's touch to wait for a better hand and doubling up is really your goal. And despite what Zaxx said, if you only win the blinds that's great. At this point, just winning the blinds gives you a decent increase in your stack and, more importantly, more time to wait for a good hand.

[JasonDB]

I did not feel desperate (except to the extent that I was not catching cards) as I had an above average chip stack. However, I thought I might catch a small stack with a smaller ace or even better KQs. However, in retrospect the range of hands likely to call me will almost always make me a dog (like the previous poster mentioned). I don't really want to go into a hand with all my chips at risk when I am among the top 9 out of 23 in chips as a dog.

[docknet]

Sorry, wasn't insinuating that you felt desparate. I was speaking about myself and when I push allin with small or medium PP.